Edited by aerdil ()
please give me thread monitor
as much as liberals talk, they have been extremely reluctant to put mandates in place, trying to thread a ridiculous line between punting enforcement to private sector and doing the equivalent of turning out all the lights in your party and hope the lingering guests get the message.
the orders for these vaccines were placed while they were still in clinical trials, so pharma company profits do not depend on whether shots actually get in people's arms. if i were a pharma exec, i would be thrilled by the current state of events. they have had to make more orders than anticipated, because shots have expired while sitting around waiting to find a patient. and the way things are headed, vax rates will probably top out between 70-80%, ensuring that that it will become endemic like influenza or tuberculosis, which means perpetual booster shots for most people while the remaining 20-30% get to pay for 90 day hospital stays, ECMO, monoclonal antibody treatment, and $200 a pop for a nurse to rub vaseline on your leg so that your skin stops weeping. the new anti-viral they just approved isn't going to help most of them, because that's like theraflu in that you have to take it within 3-5 days of symptoms, and most of these people insist they have nothing but a cold until they're finally dragged to an ER with a 50% oxygen saturation rate.
like there's this whole media narrative that it is right wingers that aren't getting the vaccine, when economic resources are the primary determining factor in whether someone has been vaccinated or not within the imperialist core and on a global scale.
on a global scale, yes, obviously, that's a completely different story. Who in this thread suggested a vaccine-only response to contain the pandemic?
burritostan posted:what economic resources are preventing someone in the imperial core from getting a free vaccine? who in america wants the vaccine but hasn't been able to get it?
on a global scale, yes, obviously, that's a completely different story. Who in this thread suggested a vaccine-only response to contain the pandemic?
the primary driver of someone not getting vaccinated in the US is related to how integrated they are into petit-bourgeois or labor aristo class privileges, and there's a huge variety of reasons people give. i'm very skeptical of the idea that those people are too stupid or right-wing (which is the talking point advocated by the neoliberal propaganda outlets)
my perception of the general conversation in this thread is that there is skepticism from myself and others that the vaccine is highly effective at stopping the spread of COVID and concern about the long-term growth of the surveillance state. In response to this skepticism and concern, there has been some pretty unhinged behavior. Why would there be so much vitriol directed against that skepticism unless someone thought the vaccine was Really Important to stopping covid?
cars posted:I could really tell which group had lives outside being reply guys, friends and family and active politics and hope for the future. or at least understood the value of those things to other people and why a global plague isn't debate club to them
i think you're right that people are worn down by arguments and hostilities particularly because it resonates very strongly with their irl situations. but i think you are missing that is likely true across the board, after nearly two years of this i doubt anyone has avoided suffering the consequences of this in real life.
it's easy to get our cables crossed from the irreconcilable aspects of having these discussions online when they pertain to irl circumstances that are not fully disclosable or relatable by posters that are coming from other contexts. we then perceive our own perspective as grounded, and read others as if they were twitter bot spam. instead of another comrade facing similar but also very different challenges.
pogfan1996 posted:if you gave a shit about anything you would fight for animal liberation more than pfizer
cars posted:you are piling up evidence itt that you are many thousands of times worse of a poster than the ones who stopped posting here over that sort of demented anti-socialist garbage. If you're going to keep it up i absolutely unironically 100% encourage you to post never again forevermore. In general a site-wide purge of people posting things like that would do nothing worse than evict people with no worthwhile political practice whatsoever and it just might bring people back to post again.
it unfortunately leads to replies like this. it's saddens me because rather than take into account an accumulated understanding of potential common ground with posters here it erodes that link. not singling you out specifically, i think that's been a problem here for everyone, and i see it happening in other spaces offline too. i'm very preoccupied with how to approach it productively.
i've tried to post in good faith in what could easily read as critical of vaccinations/mandates/etc. -- particularly recent posts related disability/care. i'm interested in discussing this because it is my reality, i don't care about 'winning' an argument, but i do want to work through it with others.
for vulnerable populations the present is little different than the beginning of the pandemic, with an increase in vaccine-mediated asymptomatic transmission public spaces are once again a complete unknown minefield, yet for the majority any remaining will to engage with this beyond following 'guidelines' and 'mandates' is exhausted.
maybe you can remember/relate; there was a very unique moment earlier in the pandemic which was building toward a radical reassessment of what social responsibility/risk/care/etc meant in practice, unprecedented in the breadth of people that were actively engaging with this collectively.
i know many irl that feel it as a terrible tragedy that moment has been both squandered and suppressed; collapsed into a series of latest divisive hot issues. ultimately it's easier to default to correct signalling than it is to work to build an alternative together with others with whom we share our day to day, whether in the apartment block, workplace or education center.
under current conditions we seemed primed to acquiesce externally and only retain some sense of interiority or integrity through piecing together fantasy league communist positions on what should have been done. yet what is actually unfolding around us is unprecedented and demands to be wrestled with. although broadly speaking none of us is doing particularly well; we do not have full information and are struggling under a variety of physical, emotional and cognitive stresses.
pogfan1996 posted:the principal contradiction of the covid epidemic isn't between individuals wanting to vaccinate and individuals not wanting to vaccinate, it's between the global north and the global south.
i think this is important too, but is also a distinct aspect as it focuses on the macro. how do we investigate that? how do we bring in what is learned from things closer to our experience? how does it help develop other ways of approaching our current and future circumstances?
whatever the pandemic is ushering in is going to be long and arduous, if anything that is an argument for patience, humility, forgiveness and mutual criticality.
the forum might be slow at present, although i'm happy if posters are prioritizing engaging irl more and look forward to whenever they return to share their experiences. on the other hand, retreating to online platforms that reinforce quick takes and bubbles is tempting and easier, perhaps even comforting as it makes sense of the world for us. but it does not provide a path to growth or empowerment outside of the labyrinths of our limited perspective.
Edited by Gssh ()
pogfan1996 posted:the principal contradiction of the covid epidemic isn't between individuals wanting to vaccinate and individuals not wanting to vaccinate, it's between the global north and the global south.
i agree to a point. this is the primary contradiction in totality, yes. the ur-primary contradiction.
but the US has been losing ground to the global south, and in response, the ruling class has begun to fracture w/r/t to how to respond to those losses. on the one hand, you have the old NATO coalition that has dominated since the end of WWII, and saw its peak of power crest right before the failure of the Iraq War -- what many would call neoliberalism, although I do not like the term. on the other, you have an emerging nationalist-fascist front. the fight over vaccines is split along those lines.
the anti-vaccine movement in the US cannot be explained solely through libertarian impulses. at its core, it is a fascist eugenics program.
this has always been true of anti-vaxxers in this country. mainstream commentators often got sidetracked because the anti-vax movement that started in the 00's seemed to have the trappings of liberalism: well-to-do, "crunchy" bourgeois types who lived in upscale California neighborhoods. but a deeper look at their rhetoric gives away the game: the idea autism is a defect that needs to be "cured," the willingness to put their children through bleach enemas and other assorted tortures like sort of grotesque Whole Foods Unit 731, the insistence that childhood diseases like measles need not be feared because "only unhygienic countries need to worry about them."
it is also true historically of fascists. the Nazis rolled back Weimar era vaccine mandates, and gleefully talked about how it would help cull the lesser races.
and you can see it in the current rhetoric. "i trust my immune system," says the 53 year old landscaping business owner from Lubbock, TX, convinced that the ichor of an eternal Aryan race of Facebook biker grandpa memes runs through his veins. "only the infirmed and people with co-morbidities die from it," assuring us only the deserved few will die. and when cases and deaths begin to rise around them, they sputter about hordes of COVID stricken migrants infecting the purity of the fatherland. christ, they're already gloating about how in The Future That Belongs to Them, their unvaccinated sperm will make them brahmins among men, and they may even may be able to get the tradwife that was promised.
for vulnerable populations the present is little different than the beginning of the pandemic, with an increase in vaccine-mediated asymptomatic transmission public spaces are once again a complete unknown minefield, yet for the majority any remaining will to engage with this beyond following 'guidelines' and 'mandates' is exhausted.
maybe you can remember/relate; there was a very unique moment earlier in the pandemic which was building toward a radical reassessment of what social responsibility/risk/care/etc meant in practice, unprecedented in the breadth of people that were actively engaging with this collectively.
i know many irl that feel it as a terrible tragedy that moment has been both squandered and suppressed; collapsed into a series of latest divisive hot issues. ultimately it's easier to default to correct signalling than it is to work to build an alternative together with others with whom we share our day to day, whether in the apartment block, workplace or education center.
i am very sympathetic to this line of thought, and if this was the main site of conflict in this country, it would probably mean that this is no longer the United $naKKKes of AmeriKKKa, which is an unequivocal good thing
but unfortunately, the main site of conflict in this country is between whether we should all get vaccinated to help vulnerable populations, or whether vulnerable populations should accept their fate and roll over and die as quickly as possible so everyone else can return to Endless Shrimp at Red Lobster
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-profile-of-the-unvaccinated/
The reality of what is happening is more complicated than “anti vax eugenicists” vs “science loving liberals.” Even in this increasingly partisan atmosphere, I’ll remain skeptical of any explanation that simply falls back on a “red vs blue” idea no matter what fancy terms you use for that split.
Outside of all taking turns describing “what I’d do if I were the communist monarch of amerikkka” the thing that I find most striking about the current situation is how little attention healthcare has garnered during all this. There is no shortage of posting warriors willing to enter the fray for or against vaccines and their mandates. A short list of improvements that seem off the table of discussion:
- health care for all (seems important given the above information)
- increased ICU capacity (how many times have we been bombarded with stories of over flowing ICUs? I posted earlier how the supply has been shrinking for decades.)
- mandatory paid sick days (everyone I know that isn’t in a profession that allows working from home - anyone in service, manufacturing, etc - faces a situation of losing pay/vacation days if they report in as sick with covid)
For months everything just gets fed into the vaccine debate.
shapes posted:i am very sympathetic to this line of thought, and if this was the main site of conflict in this country, it would probably mean that this is no longer the United $naKKKes of AmeriKKKa, which is an unequivocal good thing
but unfortunately, the main site of conflict in this country is between whether we should all get vaccinated to help vulnerable populations, or whether vulnerable populations should accept their fate and roll over and die as quickly as possible so everyone else can return to Endless Shrimp at Red Lobster
i think this can be invisible site of conflict in most places unless you experience it directly or in the fabric of your community. the rhetoric is as you say, the same, get vaccinated to protect the vulnerable, yet what is becoming more apparent is that it is potentially rendering the vaccine of limited benefit and introducing novel risks, leaves those that needed protected increasingly vulnerable. regardless, with that issue 'solved' through this roadmap there is little effort to improve or increase reliability or access to testing, which is already not usable by many vulnerable people, and in some areas it is being increasingly phased out to encourage vaccination. (edit: or other broader and absolutely necessary initiatives solidar mentions)
this is extremely challenging to address when you have well-intended but reductive argumentation around ableist behaviors directed from 'the left' toward nonvaccinated people, as if the only reason one would not be vaccinated was an individualist idea of 'personal freedom'. this is what i refer to when i say the signaling or token of vaccine compliance requires significantly less of oneself than actually confronting a system that wants people to die, and in certain ways actually contributes to strengthening said system.
regarding inheriting from fascist eugenics, some of how you characterize that rings very true, but it also does not fall neatly into dichotomy of vax/anti-vax. for certain there are elements that were primed for that argumentation, but we also have a long and sordid history of vaccine development and use contributing to eugenic and imperialist ends. i hope you don't perceive what i'm trying to articulate in these posts as coming from an 'anti-vax' or 'anti-science' position, and i certainly agree there is value in understanding what these dynamics inherit from, but part of that is considering who is wielding this science/tech/power over life/death/agency/personhood and to what end.
i mentioned in older posts a couple examples of recent/evolving policies being implemented within health/care infrastructure which resulted in many vulnerable people being condemned to unnecessary suffering and death. this kind of tragedy is very challenging to address and pick apart because it resonates so strongly and personally. many are extremely motivated or tasked to care, but under the murky circumstances confronting how varying forms of agency/complicity mediate negative forms of care can be almost unapproachable.
Edited by Gssh ()
solidar posted:The uninsured in the US as twice as likely to be unvaccinated and make up about a quarter of all unvaccinated. Of those that are unvaccinated about 40% make less than $40,000. Minority vaccination rates lag behind due to difficulty reach vaccination sites.
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-profile-of-the-unvaccinated/
that data is from late May. a number of things have happened since then (full FDA authorization, the mandate for federal employees) that have changed the numbers a bit.
the latest data from the same group has shown that the racial gap has closed -- black adults actually make up a slightly higher % of vaccinated than white adults at this point: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-october-2021/
crucially, there was a study (which unfortunately they seem to have put behind a paywall now, but I will look for it elsewhere) that there was a difference between the unvaccinated who still followed COVID preventative measures (masking, distancing, etc) and those who actively chose not to. black Americans disproportionately made up the former, white Americans disproportionately made up the latter
regarding inheriting from fascist eugenics, some of how you characterize that rings very true, but it also does not fall neatly into dichotomy of vax/anti-vax. for certain there are elements that were primed for that argumentation, but we also have a long and sordid history of vaccine development and use contributing to eugenic and imperialist ends. i hope you don't perceive what i'm trying to articulate in these posts as coming from an 'anti-vax' or 'anti-science' position, i certainly agree there is value in understanding what these dynamics inherit from, and part of that is considering who is wielding this science/tech/power over life/death/agency/personhood and to what end.
i understand your point, and there is unquestionably a difference between vaccine hesitancy based on prior collective trauma vs being outright anti-vaccination. what is interesting is that these dynamics often play out in counterintuitive ways
by far, the single greatest collision of vaccines and imperialism was the creation and initial transmission of HIV, which scientists all pretty much agree was the result of a) colonial practices forcing people to resort to bushmeat b) a French vaccine program where they reused needles and did not sterilize, which combined what were initially disparate pathogens into something far more deadly than they probably would have on their own and c) forced dispersal of workers around the continent, ensuring that it spread as rapidly as possible
it is a slam dunk case of a vaccine program causing millions of deaths. but it is never brought up in anti-vaxx crowds -- i have been dealing with that group on and off for decades now, and i cannot think of a single time anyone has mentioned it. because the implicit (and often explicit) line is that HIV is a "good" virus that mostly kills Africans and LGBT people.
shapes posted:that data is from late May. a number of things have happened since then (full FDA authorization, the mandate for federal employees) that have changed the numbers a bit.
the latest data from the same group has shown that the racial gap has closed -- black adults actually make up a slightly higher % of vaccinated than white adults at this point: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-october-2021/
Good point, thanks for sharing - that was an old link I had saved - didn’t realize it was that old! A lot of data there and some key changes you point out. Off the bat I will note that it still seems to me (from some back of the napkin calculations) that the uninsured still make up about a quarter of all unvaccinated.
shapes posted:it is a slam dunk case of a vaccine program causing millions of deaths. but it is never brought up in anti-vaxx crowds -- i have been dealing with that group on and off for decades now, and i cannot think of a single time anyone has mentioned it. because the implicit (and often explicit) line is that HIV is a "good" virus that mostly kills Africans and LGBT people.
yeah exactly, additionally this kind of dynamic ensures the opportunity for imperialism playing both sides of a confrontation and defining the parameters. that's one aspect of what i feel to be intensifying, correct approaches and alliances become increasingly difficult to work out while corralled into a fascist fog.
pogfan1996 posted:the idea that vaccination is this highly critical aspect of containing and eliminating covid is not supported by what we have seen in the real world
Its also probably worth noting that while roughly a quarter of the unvaccinated are uninsured, this is a correlation and not a causation, at least in the united states. after all, the uninsured have free access to COVID vaccines just as the insured do, and have had that free access since they were first available to the public (again, in the US). that uninsured people make up a sizeable percentage of the unvaccinated despite this points to other, confounding factors being at play.
Edited by JohnBeige ()
it is important to examine why it is so important to neoliberal propaganda outlets that vaxx vs anti-vaxx is the dominant narrative. it is probably also important to examine why that narrative has taken over left wing spaces, our community isn't the only one that has these struggles around covid/vaccination.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-28/getting-vaccinated-doesn-t-stop-people-from-spreading-delta
People inoculated against Covid-19 are just as likely to spread the delta variant of the virus to contacts in their household as those who haven’t had shots, according to new research.
In a yearlong study of 621 people in the U.K. with mild Covid-19, scientists found that their peak viral load was similar regardless of vaccination status, according to a paper published Thursday in The Lancet Infectious Diseases medical journal.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why
Israel was the first country on Earth to fully vaccinate a majority of its citizens against COVID-19. Now it has one of the world's highest daily infection rates — an average of nearly 7,500 confirmed cases a day, double what it was two weeks ago.
Edited by pogfan1996 ()
marimite posted:they don't need to be "corralled".
sorry was not clear, i was referring how having fascists defining the terms on multiple sides does the corralling of others.
burritostan posted:I don't think anyone disputes the findings of those articles. Those point to very different conclusions than vaccine = ineffective, which is what provokes the "vitriol" you mentioned earlier. as far as I can tell, no one here is saying people should just get the vaccine and call it a day. Instead, posters who proudly declare they won't get vaccinated deserve the mockery they're getting.
one thing i've been trying to clarify is how for many vulnerable people 'vaccine = ineffective' is a true statement as it pertains to minimizing their chances of exposure, which is of primary risk to them. following from this certain people, particularly in position of caring for others, choose not being vaccinated as a deliberate and calculated act of care prioritizing the wellbeing of those more vulnerable. this is a difficult decision that departs not a priori from a particular ideological position, but in response to very real embodied and situated risks. i realize that can appear very counterintuitive; as such this is rarely announced, much less boastfully.
Edited by Gssh ()
for many people that are not directly targeted/excluded it's challenging to remain cognizant of how surviving does not result from the graces of the state, but rather in spite of it, being fought for arduously in a myriad ways that are both personal and collective within formal and informal care structures.
whether that's enough to encourage us to identify a different primary contradiction in the current situation is beside the point. but we must recognize the problems that arise in internalizing a liberal discourse around 'care' that is more concerned with signification and discipline than actually centering the needs and agency of those in whose name it calls us to mobilize. we risk laundering accountability and disempowering those actively struggling to survive and thrive against the limits of their agency and complicity in a system stacked against them.
Edited by Gssh ()
pogfan1996 posted:Israel was the first country on Earth to fully vaccinate a majority of its citizens against COVID-19. Now it has one of the world's highest daily infection rates — an average of nearly 7,500 confirmed cases a day, double what it was two weeks ago.
that would have been correct in late August/early September, but cases have plummeted since then, and
they currently have a 7-day average of 479 cases.
the numbers for Israel are also a little weird, because when that late August surge in cases occurred, they had 78% of eligible ppl over the age of 12 vaccinated, high compared to the US at that time, but still not as high as it should have been. and because of the S E T T L E R C O L O N I A L project, Israel's population skews very young, so only 58% of the total population was vaccinated.
and even with the surge in cases, they did not come close to hitting the average deaths they were experiencing back in January even though they were getting more total infections
it is important to examine why it is so important to neoliberal propaganda outlets that vaxx vs anti-vaxx is the dominant narrative.
zhaoyao posted:my favorite part of this thread are the who-is-more-communist dick measuring contests
don't be a liberal
cars posted:Anti-vaccination propaganda is anti-socialist. If you spread anti-vaccination propaganda, that is anti-socialist.