but considering you lack the awareness to realize this thread was originally closed to save you from having this exact sort of multi page meltdown/psychotic break, closing it again feels like an act of mercy
SookieIlychStackhouse posted:aerdil posted:
getting the vaccine as a socialist imperative to protect the health of yourself and others in the community and the natsec industry trying to use public health monitoring as an excuse to expand their surveillance state aren't mutually exclusive things
yeah i think the objection here wrt to the vaccine is solely the ways in which amerika is
a) using the idea of a vaccine mandate in combination with empire centric intellectual property laws to build a wider disparity between the first and third worlds with the flimsy justification of profits and low amerikan vaccination rates to maintain the vaccine hoard
b) the way the security state can potentially take the public good of contract tracing and vaccine passports and easily distort it into a ready made database of citizens to track and control. you can see this in action in the way police have gained access to genetic databases like 23 and me to track people down despite that not being the purpose of the database at all.
i missed these points earlier too. but i don’t think anyone is saying that it’s not good praxis to get vaccinated, only that the amerikan policy on vaccination has the explicit purpose of expanding the security state and weakening the third world
white identity must be destroyed
i stand corrected. one person was, in fact, saying that
liceo posted:don't you all think that even maybe you're going to be so sorely wrong in the next couple of years? and if that's the case, then what? have you considered what the ramifications will be if you're wrong?
I mean, yeah — constantly and about such a wide range of topics that I'm not even sure where to begin. Is there some other way to live, without having to periodically reexamine conclusions and recalibrate beliefs?
All I've been able to figure out is that surrender to a paralyzing dread of possible future regret was not a very good guiding principle, and in fact introduced me to a menagerie of regrets I never expected.
If anyone here has a handle on timeless apodictic certainty, PM me, thanks in advance.
https://cpp.ph/statements/several-mp-residents-refuse-to-be-vaccinated/ posted:In an information gathering done by the Cordillera People’s Democratic Front – Mountain Province, it was discovered that not only a few have refused to be vaccinated with anti-COVID vaccines due to several reasons. Many have refused the vaccine, particularly senior citizens, after some reports of its adverse effects and its effectivity.
...
Amidst the widespread doubt and distrust on the anti-COVID vaccination among the i-Montanyosa, the CPDF MP is ever determined to campaign for the vaccination along with the campaign to strengthen community health systems and people’s resistance against any virus. “This widespread doubt on the vaccination is due to the severe lack of information dissemination among the people. Revolutionary mass organizations in the barrios will amplify its information drive regarding the COVID-19,” the CPDF MP said. According to an article dated March 2021 in Dangadang, the revolutionary publication in Ilocos-Cordillera, vaccines will help produce anti-bodies to counter particular kinds of virus. The article also explained the importance of having the majority of the population vaccinated and acquire the capacity to produce anti-bodies against the COVID-19.
Meanwhile, Leonardo Pacsi Command (New People’s Army – Mountain Province) continue to provide medical services to the village folks while facing focused military operations. “It is quite saddening, but also enraging, that the Duterte regime is more focused in crushing the revolutionary movement than seriously solving this pandemic. Our medical units shall continue its health work among the people even if we are under the attacks of the AFP and PNP. Free, accessible, and quality health is a basic right of the people,” said Magno Udyaw, spokesperson of the NPA MP. “Along with our medical work, we will also intensify our programs in agrarian revolution, like increase in food and herbal medicine production in the barrios, as part of our campaign against COVID-19,” Udyaw added. Lastly, the CPDF MP reiterated that the people have the right to safe and effective vaccination, and military and anti-insurgency funds worth billions of pesos should be rechanelled to health and other basic social services
https://cpp.ph/2021/02/11/ndf-ev-to-launch-information-drive-on-covid-19-vaccine/ posted:In solidarity with the people’s efforts to beat Covid-19 and the call for free and safe vaccines, the National Democratic Front in Eastern Visayas said in a statement last February 6 that it will launch an information drive in the region. The NDF-EV believes it is in the interest of the people that the spread of the disease be controlled by vaccinating as many of the informed public.
Along with this, the people of Eastern Visayas condemn the Duterte regime’s slow, anomalous and corruption-ridden procurement of vaccines.
Duterte has no intentions to conduct mass vaccination, he only seeks to profit from whatever negotiations made between pharmaceutical companies and private businesses and local government units. The government also plans to go on another borrowing-binge using vaccine acquisition as an excuse.
The NDF-EV also questioned Duterte’s meager allocation for vaccine acquisition while alloting P19 billion for NTF-ELCAC, P58 billion for AFP modernization and P8.3 billion for presidential intelligence funds. The group also noted the regime’s lack of funds for mass vaccination and mass testing yet it can acquire more fighter jets, attack helicpters, drones, tanks, bombs and other military equipments.
https://cpp.ph/2021/01/21/fight-for-free-and-safe-covid-19-vaccines/ posted:The Philippines has no capacity to develop or manufacture its own vaccines or other important medicine, except paracetamol. Under Duterte, funding for research has further been cut. Thus, when it comes to Covid-19 vaccines, the monopoly capitalists and foreign governments hold Filipinos by the neck. They are in partnership with local big capitalists and in connivance with the bureaucrat capitalist government.
In the face of the Covid-19 pandemic that has infected half a million Filipinos, and more than 95 million people globally, and caused the death of more than 2 million, various countries are exerting efforts to carry out a program for widespread vaccination. Capitalist countries such as the United Kingdom, United States, Japan, China, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Singapore and others have taken lead. Even less developed countries as Cuba, India, Vietnam, Iran and others have developed their own vaccines and are set on distributing these for free.
The Party encourages all Filipinos to have themselves vaccinated against Covid-19. This is for the health of every individual and the whole society. Widespread vaccination of the population is one of the key measures to stop the spread of the Covid-19. At the same time, the decision of individuals not to have themselves vaccinated for their beliefs must be respected.
All revolutionary forces must carry out efforts to disseminate information to raise the people’s knowledge of vaccines to allay their fears and misbeliefs. Help everyone understand the importance of vaccines.
People must demand that research and development of Covid-19 vaccines be made public. This is in order for people to have a firm basis for deciding which vaccine they will allow themselves to be injected with.
The Filipino people must fight for free Covid-19 vaccination. They must assert the state’s obligation to ensure that free and safe vaccines are available to everyone who chooses to be inoculated. Expose and denounce the lack of budget and the corruption of government officials in secret negotiations for vaccine sales.
At the same time, they must demand free testing and free treatment for Covid-19. The people must continue to demand the strengthening of the public health system. There must be increased allocations for improving public hospitals, hiring more nurses and medical workers and for raising their salaries.
Vaccination is an important aspect in controlling the spread of infectious diseases. Many diseases have been eliminated or controlled through vaccines. This is one of the important scientific weapons of humanity.
aerdil posted:i think with the preponderance of actual communists and principled marxists being pro-vaccine, the only path ahead is going full red kahina/phil greaves and saying that china, cuba, vietnam, etc. are actually authoritarian fake-communists or whatever and the only true marxists left are a dozen weirdos who obsessively tweet about AOC or retweet right-wing vaxx grifters a hundred times a day. sad!
that position is a particularly silly one because the filipino and indian maoists do argue that those countries are revisionist, social imperialist, etc, but they also clearly aren't criticising them for vaccinating people despite their other criticisms.
aerdil posted:i think with the preponderance of actual communists and principled marxists being pro-vaccine, the only path ahead is going full red kahina/phil greaves and saying that china, cuba, vietnam, etc. are actually authoritarian fake-communists or whatever and the only true marxists left are a dozen weirdos who obsessively tweet about AOC or retweet right-wing vaxx grifters a hundred times a day. sad!
the actual complaint appears to be that firstly there is a difference in how coronavirus, including the vaccination program, is instrumentalised in the west; not that the theory and technology of vaccines is bad; and secondly that vaccination is a fetishised technological solution to a socially entrenched problem. China didn't succeed in their efforts to control coronavirus through vaccination only.
tears posted:aerdil posted:i think with the preponderance of actual communists and principled marxists being pro-vaccine, the only path ahead is going full red kahina/phil greaves and saying that china, cuba, vietnam, etc. are actually authoritarian fake-communists or whatever and the only true marxists left are a dozen weirdos who obsessively tweet about AOC or retweet right-wing vaxx grifters a hundred times a day. sad!
the actual complaint appears to be that firstly there is a difference in how coronavirus, including the vaccination program, is instrumentalised in the west; not that the theory and technology of vaccines is bad; and secondly that vaccination is a fetishised technological solution to a socially entrenched problem. China didn't succeed in their efforts to control coronavirus through vaccination only.
that so many Chinese are willing to be vaccinated despite the low rate of viral transmission domestically actually speaks of even higher trust imo
Edited by neckwattle ()
tears posted:aerdil posted:i think with the preponderance of actual communists and principled marxists being pro-vaccine, the only path ahead is going full red kahina/phil greaves and saying that china, cuba, vietnam, etc. are actually authoritarian fake-communists or whatever and the only true marxists left are a dozen weirdos who obsessively tweet about AOC or retweet right-wing vaxx grifters a hundred times a day. sad!
the actual complaint appears to be that firstly there is a difference in how coronavirus, including the vaccination program, is instrumentalised in the west; not that the theory and technology of vaccines is bad; and secondly that vaccination is a fetishised technological solution to a socially entrenched problem. China didn't succeed in their efforts to control coronavirus through vaccination only.
i don't think anyone is arguing that the solution ultimately isn't social. China's success speaks for itself
but there is a limit to the effectiveness even of contact tracing, aggressive lockdowns, etc. Vietnam did amazing for most of the pandemic, ridiculously low infection and death rate. but when the Delta variant hit, cases and deaths shot up (at least relative to their early success) because if a virus hits a R0, there's only so much you can do. and of course, this is not Vietnam's fault, the US's decision to horde vaccines and lock down intellectual property for a handful of pharmaceutical companies was yet another in a long list of atrocities against the Third World
what i do disagree with is the idea that the goal of the West's vaccination program primary purpose to increase surveillance efforts, and thus should be resisted.
i don't doubt that they're trying to use it to increase surveillance efforts ex post facto, but it's a secondary goal and one that i don't think will be particularly effective. the primary goal was to keep the circulation of production going and prevent the economy from grinding to a halt. not a particularly noble goal, but it's a decision borne out of crisis and weakness rather than strength
aerdil posted:yeah i agree shapes and its probably worth thinking specifically about what the actual qualities of the surveillance efforts associated with the vaccine actually are. the idea that showing a piece of paper or QR code so a bored bartender can glance at it or show anywhere else you pretty much already have to show ID is some nefarious tactic of neoliberal surveillance seems like a claim just being accepted as granted. obviously the usual suspects are trying to pivot into building the software and government contracts for a standardized proof of vaccination app but i honestly don't see how knowing you're vaxxed is a substantive increase to the bulk of health data & data accumulation these companies & the government already have on the population and such a rubicon that you should avoid being vaccinated against a virus that's killed 5 million people as some kind of protest against it. this just feels like infantile libertarian anguish over being asked to do something personally inconvenient or slightly invasive for the good of the community.
the thing with a qr code that has to be scanned is it’s going to have to call out to some system to authenticate it. when you show id people usually just look at it, but if your qr code is getting scanned all over the place you’re effectively generating an audit trail of every building you go into all day.
granted if you use an android phone your already doing this and lol if you think googles fighting a subpoena, so it’s not that compelling a boogieman unless you’re the kind of person who only uses an iphone with a vpn turned on and obsessively manages your opsec
i havent seen a QR code thing, and i kinda am opposed to that, but i dont see the issue with flashing a vax card. recently i was a host at a restaurant and if i was asked to do this at my job id take pleasure in finally being given some autonomy and the ability to force a Karen to get the fuck out of my face and store
Edited by JohnBeige ()
JohnBeige posted:your phone has a constantly-transmitting GPS transponder and even if you handwave that away, your location can almost always be triangulated with cell towers. nobody is getting away from the state if they really wanna find you, and its been that way since before the patriot act. people gotta stop hyperventilating and just treat it the same as they would any other piece of enemy tech.
i havent seen a QR code thing, and i kinda am opposed to that, but i dont see the issue with flashing a vax card. recently i was a host at a restaurant and if i was asked to do this at my job id take pleasure in finally being given some autonomy and the ability to force a Karen to get the fuck out of my face and store
you’re right about the cell towers but gps doesn’t work that way. gps works by receiving time codes from sattelites. it doesn’t broadcast your position which is why i mentioned androids. your gps location is only being tracked if your phones vendor is actively recording and sharing it.
but yeah if you’re carrying a cellphone you are being tracked by somebody and i agree that the paper vaccine card is more than enough assuming there’s some way to detect fakes.
edit: personal info removed due to stalker behavior
Edited by SookieIlychStackhouse ()
JohnBeige posted:genuinely appreciate the correction! this stuff isnt my field :P i was under the impression that phones were supposed to broadcast location for EMS, but i suppose that could just as easily be done via triangulation
ems location stuff with cell phones is a mess. in some locales they can find you within 100ft, in some places it’s just a guess based on area code, and everything in between. it’s a war zone of competing vendors getting varying levels of kickback from local government
even if the vaccine seems largely pretty safe (although the rate of side effects is significantly higher than with other vaccine technologies) the only assurance that the bourgeoisie won't pull the trigger is if they think they can't get away with it, in an existentially threatened situation theyd barely hesitate to deploy every last biological weapon in their arsenal. it may or may not be scientifically correct in the current instance but that largely comfortable western marxists can't see the mass popular distrust as anything other than reactionary individualism shows how relatively unadvanced we are politically. in any case the only real barometer for what's scientifically correct is practice, considering the barbaric history of pharmaceutical companies. caution is always warranted and especially so at significant political junctures i.e. the present
neckwattle posted:even if the vaccine seems largely pretty safe (although the rate of side effects is significantly higher than with other vaccine technologies) the only assurance that the bourgeoisie won't pull the trigger is if they think they can't get away with it, in an existentially threatened situation theyd barely hesitate to deploy every last biological weapon in their arsenal. it may or may not be scientifically correct in the current instance but that largely comfortable western marxists can't see the mass popular distrust as anything other than reactionary individualism shows how relatively unadvanced we are politically. in any case the only real barometer for what's scientifically correct is practice, considering the barbaric history of pharmaceutical companies. caution is always warranted and especially so at significant political junctures i.e. the present
what's the trigger they're going to pull, because the fact that biological weapons exist doesn't seem to directly interact with the vaccine in question
Most of the 500,000 doses of Moderna COVID vaccines donated to #Haiti are set to expire, because of post-traumatic UN-cholera syndrome, WHO/CDC Coverup, and because Haitians don't trust the US that has its knees on Haiti's neck. Are Haitians anti-vaxxer pseudo-intellectuals, too? https://t.co/w1ZE4gUm2T pic.twitter.com/oCpmlTru5B
— Madame Boukman - Justice 4 Haiti 🇭🇹 (@madanboukman) October 13, 2021
lo posted:neckwattle posted:
what's the trigger they're going to pull, because the fact that biological weapons exist doesn't seem to directly interact with the vaccine in question
I meant that in a general sense, not with regards to the vaccine
neckwattle posted:
there’s a pretty marked difference between people exploited and ravaged by amerika at every turn being suspicious of amerikan charity (which is historically a velvet glove over the hands that strangle them) and a bunch of internet marxists hitting the crack pipe too hard and seeing mk ultra around every corner. because the train of thought you advocated above basically reduces to “ending polio and the measles was merely an op to make you comfortable with THE MAN sticking you with needles full of MYSTERY JUICE”.
there’s reasonable skepticism and then there’s conspiracy theories.
and you can have my ill gotten tech gains when you pry it out of the hands of the 7 student loan processors i mail it all to every month
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neckwattle posted:I meant that in a general sense, not with regards to the vaccine
Ok, well COVID-19, the vaccines against this disease, and the actions taken by states and societies surrounding the disease are the specific topic of this thread so you should try posting some interesting things in the conspiracy thread or the bio/chemical weapons thread, or the technological surveillance thread instead of continuing this ridiculous line that the more afraid you are the smarter you are.
neckwattle posted:and where does a tech worker get off calling someone else an internet marxist anyway, you should be paying quadruple zakat
referring specifically to lancet study, here's even a mainstream bbc article.
that it points to it being more likely those treated with mrna vaccine show no symptoms at peak infection to warn them, and have behaviors / greater access that leads to group contact it becomes clear that a policy of coercion to mass vaccinate risks being further murderous to weak populations, whether by design or negligence.
i worry about this especially in the case of health/care workers ... the inverse logic of mandating their vaccination because 'they work with vulnerable groups that need protected', it's now apparent it can make it more likely that they end up exposing patients, not less. combine that with the mass firing of untreated health/care workers, and you have a situation where staff is short and overworked, and with less 'canaries in the coal mine' to provide early warning of spread between wards / coworkers.
this is before even taking into account possible vaccine-escape driving mutations toward greater lethality mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
neckwattle posted:Nothing about this argument bears specifically on vaccine technology, how many times has that been trotted out now?
yeah a lot of trotting out in this thread. because you keep posting lol
I would argue that fewer people coming to the hospital with severe covid symptoms would actually lower the risk for healthcare workers contracting and transmitting the disease unwittingly, but this is really a moot point because the presence and possibility of disease is everpresent in healthcare settings even in normal circumstances. Rather than waiting for a "canary" nurse to start coughing, by which time they've already probably been liable to spread the disease presymptomaticly for days, the right thing to do is have a strict regular regime of testing for healthcare workers. Just like the coal mines replaced living birds with gas meters, the hospitals can use technology to save their employees from contracting a life-threatening disease.
regardless of other factors of illness progression the effect of this treatment is that possibility of asymptomatic transmission increases. whether that's because peak-viral load is similar or other details is a nuance beside what i'm pointing to, the other factors may be true, but it does not change the reality that for certain constellations of networks of care the risks this brings are completely misaddressed.
an additional but separate point is that mass-vaccinating for an illness with well understood risk factors that will resolve itself without notable severity in a significant majority of the population becomes a harder sell when that same process does little to protect actual vulnerable groups from contagion within supposedly safe/r environments. this is especially true where access to those environments is both conditional and necessary for daily life.
your broad appeal to 'use technology to save employees' decenters those ostensibly seeking their care. that same technocratic appeal underpins the requirement to use novel mrna treatments, contract tracing apps, centralized covid-pass for access to employment/basic services/travel. the damage left behind building this infrastructure has made me increasingly suspect of it.
colddays posted:Who is deploying what weapon in what circumstances? Provide some material facts or analysis deeper than "the bourgeoisie does bad things." What you're saying does nothing more than spread generalized fear and anxiety about the world at the expense of critical thought regarding the actual situation. You yourself just said that the vaccine seems largely safe, so what's the use in continuing to act like the people who have been saying that exact thing and little more so far in this thread are naive sheep?
Yeah if you ignore the context entirely it certainly sounds like fear-mongering, but I'm arguing against blanket statements like "getting vaccinated is socialist" and the way anybody slightly critical has been labelled "anti-vax". As to the concrete details of biological warfare, idk, probably the US/Commonwealth axis if they're ever seriously threatened, the Afrikaaner government tried to develop biological weapons genetically tailored to kill and sterilize specifically black people in the 80s that could be introduced into the water supply, many of those scientists were recruited by the US after the fall of apartheid (including the guy who got pinned for the anthrax attacks), etc. You don't have to dig very far for concrete examples, but it's more of a theoretical point anyway about the calculations people who are actually faced with the murderous intent of imperialism are making. Anyone who's certain one way the other with regard to the vaccine is proceeding more from ideology than materialist science: the broader point is that it's effectively impossible to know in advance whether something like this is benign or a weapon in the class war.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02046-8/fulltext (co-authored by 2 FDA officials who resigned)
https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_term=hootsuite&utm_content=sme&utm_campaign=usage
the site is dodgy and i havent really looked into the statistical claims but this seems prima facie concerning: https://theexpose.uk/2021/10/31/100-percent-of-covid-19-vaccine-deaths-caused-by-just-5-percent-of-the-batches-produced/
I was trying to keep to the theoretical register because it seems impossible to parse anything concrete right now. but if you're gonna press me here you go
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