#1
[account deactivated]
#2
Kurdt
Post rating: ~
if you measure me, you negate me
- kierkegaard
#3
Post rating: ~
1. Core
2. Wavering
3. Hostile
#4
Kurdt
Post rating: ~
in All Honesty i don't "get" the thought experiment. am i supposed to be a neoliberal policymaker in a vat situated on twin earth having Present Material Conditions who rejects methodological individualism but still affirms neoliberalism, bourgeois morality, the gayness of this earth, etc.?
#5
Poronto
Post rating: ~
a metric that encapsulates the density, depth and strength of interpersonal relationships and networks in a holistic manner. i.e. number of facebook friends
#6
Post rating: ~
first i would replace GDP per capita with GDP. Much better.
#7
Post rating: ~
Then I would stop using median averages and start using mean averages. This is also less methodologically individualist.
#8
Post rating: ~

littlegreenpills posted:
a metric that encapsulates the density, depth and strength of interpersonal relationships and networks in a holistic manner.



Why is this a good metric? Prisoners have a huge density, depth and strength of interpersonal relationships and networks but that hardly means they have a good or happy life.

Always was, always will be, hell is other people.

#9
Kurdt
Post rating: ~
national unity index
#10
Post rating: ~
gini index ONLY all other standards are irrelevant / cultural imperialism
#11
Post rating: ~
the gini coefficient is horrible lol
#12
[account deactivated]
#13
Post rating: ~
theres also the problem that it doesnt touch wealth. like sweden has the best gini coefficient but also 60% of the wealth is owned by 5% of the households
#14
Post rating: ~
khamsek are you saying gini needs to be MORE individualist?!?! Zoinks!!!
#15
Post rating: ~

jools posted:
khamsek are you saying gini needs to be MORE individualist?!?! Zoinks!!!



What’s wrong with the individual as a metric anyway?

The entirety of human existence is interpreted by individuals locked inside their own brains so it makes sense to use that.

#16
Kurdt
Post rating: ~
all existing metrics should be retained, but reformulated and expressed strictly in terms of the oneness of God
#17
Post rating: ~

gyrofry posted:
all existing metrics should be retained, but reformulated and expressed strictly in terms of the oneness of God



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_national_happiness

#18
Poronto
Post rating: ~

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
Why is this a good metric? Prisoners have a huge density, depth and strength of interpersonal relationships and networks but that hardly means they have a good or happy life.



they aren't even ALLOWED to use facebook. try harder

#19
[account deactivated]
#20
Poronto
Post rating: +
maybe we need to work backwards, ditch the whole idea of metrics and base policy on an organic collation of anecdote, myth and parable
#21
Post rating: ~
infant mortality ONLY all other standards are irrelevant / cultural imperialism
#22
Kurdt
Post rating: ~
we've got to go back marty...back to First Principles. what do we want? why do we want it?
#23
Post rating: ~
re: financialisation im curious to read andrew kliman's new book about how all this stuff about credit supplanting income to support demand is a red herring
#24
Post rating: ~

jools posted:
re: financialisation im curious to read andrew kliman's new book about how all this stuff about credit supplanting income to support demand is a red herring



A red herring from what?

#25
Post rating: ~

discipline posted:

jools posted:
khamsek are you saying gini needs to be MORE individualist?!?! Zoinks!!!

haha no what I'm saying is that maybe we need to reformulate our analysis totally... but failing that I'm trying to grasp the best option for measuring human development. maybe literacy rates? I don't know. I don't know guys. I feel like maybe top-town, judging relationships or connections, maybe level of financialization... I don't know guys that's why I came here, to the rhiZZnone, where answers are a dime a dozen



any "simple" metrics will necessarily be limited in measure. i don't see how literacy analysis is some kind of break from the analytic tradition of summing the data of individuals. I don't think we can really get beyond such metrics, or at least it's beyond my imagination.

Certainly, we can create derived social metrics from local metrics like HDI is in a primitive way, and there is work to be done there; however, I think looking at the level of society requires necessary a step up in theory as opposed to measurement. I.E. the development of topology, dynamical systems, etc in mathematics, where breaks between local and global behavior were increasingly felt.

#26
[account deactivated]
#27
Post rating: ~
Or we could just but out of people's shit too i guess
#28
Kurdt
Post rating: ~
the solution to what
#29
Post rating: ~

discipline posted:
of course the solution is a holistic approach with many different perspectives used, a great data set married to reasonable theory and research .. but then we would need an authority, some sort of authority! we can't just have these facts floating around. and it can't be the UN the UN SUCKS!!!



i've lost you a bit here...

#30
Post rating: ~

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

jools posted:
re: financialisation im curious to read andrew kliman's new book about how all this stuff about credit supplanting income to support demand is a red herring

A red herring from what?



basically its that the underconsumption/left keynesian argument is really not the whole story and in fact theres been a consistent fall in profit rates since the 70s

#31
[account deactivated]
#32
Post rating: ~
yes you can, its called critique of political economy Lol
#33
[account deactivated]
#34
Kurdt
Post rating: +

discipline posted:

gyrofry posted:
the solution to what

haha right, sorry, let me clearly define the problem: you can't take down the master's house using the master's tools, right? and since methodological individualism, neoclassical economics, policy formulation standards etc all sort of serve the master of neoliberalism, what tools and what strategies can a progressive ideology use in this our modern age to measure human well being?



well i gathered that much but i guess i was trying to draw out a bit more detail on the scope of the problem as you see it today.

like i don't believe that you literally take "you can't take down the master's house using the master's tools" as some sort of axiomatic truth from which your conclusions must flow -- rather you're getting at the idea, arrived at through some past and ongoing experience with the world, that the present social power configuration is tightly bound up with the way in which the vocabularies and theories commonly available to us circumscribe the set of conceivable actions and solutions.

everyone here is more or less some stripe of vaguely anti-imperialist quasi-marxian, if not in a truly committed sense, at least to the extent of having some rhetorical fluency.

so back to your statement.

1. it seems that your objective is to promote "human well being".
2. you believe that such a state is possible
3. you believe that such a state does not currently obtain
4. you believe that such things can be meaningfully measured.

i guess what i'm wondering is: what is well being? what do you base this notion on? why do you believe such a state is possible (or that such a state does not currently obtain?) why do you believe that such a thing can be meaningfully measured?

#35
Post rating: +

discipline posted:

gyrofry posted:
the solution to what

you can't take down the master's house using the master's tools, right?



Counterpoint:

1. Harpers Ferry Raid
2. The end of Return of the Jedi

#36
Post rating: ~
what elemennop seemed to be suggesting to me is that you will always run into the same problems with this kind of measurement, based on statistical analysis of data about individuals. you can improve it to a limited extent - the multidimensional poverty index is not actually too bad, and neither is the human poverty index. the problem is that if you accept there is a qualitative difference between individual phenomena and societal phenomena, then you need to change entirely the way you attempt to measure and understand them quantitatively.

i'm no mathematician, but the best way is probably working out how to build better models for these things. ironically a lot of the tools we need have probably been developed by financial statisticians. however we need the right theory in order to develop them.
#37
lame
Post rating: ~

jools posted:
re: financialisation im curious to read andrew kliman's new book about how all this stuff about credit supplanting income to support demand is a red herring



#38
Kurdt
Post rating: ~
theres a pretty sweet review of it on amazon by some dude named M.A. Krul
#39
Post rating: ~
We need an individual human HDI that includes number of appliances, attractiveness, sexhaving, facial symmetry etc.
#40
Post rating: ~

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
We need an individual human HDI that includes number of appliances, attractiveness, sexhaving, facial symmetry etc.



actually the first one is part of the multidimensional poverty index iirc