discipline posted:
ok I watched all 31 minutes and I only disagree with about 10% of what he said. time to throw the 8lb baby out with the half cup of bathwater I guess.

yeah same. the man has 30 years of experience and scholarship under his belt and it shows

i don't know enough about the whole "maps" thing he was talking about i/r/t the practicality of the two state solution but it really made the ISM/BDS guy interviewing him seem like an ignorant parrot.

i dont like how dismissive he is of the right of return but i totally understand where's coming from with it. his whole point is that if you want to appeal to international law, then you have to do so consistently. if you want to appeal to human rights or justice the one hand, and then the law on the other, then zionists can easily beat you at that game doing the same thing. you have to stick to your principles.

he also makes the point that palestinians should organize their people, and westerners should organize their people. that's how it was done in vietnam, central america, south africa, etc. that means that westerners unfortunately don't get to play big bad bully on the jews and they have to appeal to things like congress and international law if they want to achieve anything aside from cultishness. the lack of understanding this distinction has produced these cults that claim to represent palestinian civil society and the ability to get 50,000 gazans to demonstrate but instead produce demonstrations of 300.

he explicitly says he supports BDS, and that he supports their tactics. he just disapproves of their dishonesty on the issue of israel. they pretend to be agnostic because there is a large contingent of the movement who want the destruction of israel, which conflicts with their goals to appeal to a broad base of people, whom they know won't support an openly anti-israel campaign. one has to be honest with people if you're going to achieve any kind of sustainable, serious victory.

i totally agree with everything he says about the "cults" of maoists and ISM kids and NGO volunteers and such.

gotta side with the fink on this one yall

babyhueypnewton posted:

babyfinland posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:
Why does the "truth" of international law matter? Why does a propaganda battle have to be on honest, consistent terms or else the other guys will call you hypocrites (as if this doesn't happen regardless)? Once again he's a liberal who thinks that international law is based on some fundamental justice, which would be wrong even if international law was used to protect oppressed peoples and not crushing them through imperialism. They are no different than the democrats who complain about the unfairness of fox news and if we only appeal to the "truth" everyone will come to our side.

No he's not, he's pursuing a specific goal through the path of greatest efficacy. you're just mad he called western maoists a bunch of silly cultists.

babyhueypnewton posted:
He is actively harmful with these comments because his liberalism causes him to chastise and demonize allies (kinda like that blac bloc dude, hmm liberals stop being tolerant and understanding when challenged from the left) in pursuit of some ideal justice just like Chomsky. His calls for appealing to "mass opinion" are absurd, as if opinion was something innate and not a function of the struggle for hegemony and as if people fundamentally are on our side they just aren't represented (this is something he obviously gets from Chomsky).

how is palestinian statehood not going to be a victory in the struggle for hegemony?

babyhueypnewton posted:
Normally I would consider this just another case of blind liberalism, but his tone, his influence, and his demonetization of allies far worse than zionist propaganda makes this a watershed moment for seeing Finkelstein and Chomsky for what they are, which is a left challenge tolerated and encouraged by imperialism to shut down genuine people's movements and anti-capitalist action.

what genuine people's movements and anti-capitalist action are you talking about lol

you are the perfect representative of the cultish baby hes talking about, look at what youre saying

except he's not which is why palestinian statehood failed and will always fail and pointing out the hypocracy of the United States and how the UN law is not followed at all accomplishes nothing except making 1st worlders feel righteous. I also am not clear what he has actually accomplished, meanwhile the "cult" which sent out the gaza flotilla from turkey accomplished more than he ever has in actually changing the concrete situation and mass public opinion.

what

babyfinland posted:
baby huey u are the biggest trot in the universe

im glad you're not a trot but since you're also not a marxist all that's left is absurd fantasy like religion and pseudo-fascism.

babyhueypnewton posted:

babyfinland posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

babyfinland posted:
baby huey u are the biggest trot in the universe

im glad you're not a trot but since you're also not a marxist all that's left is absurd fantasy like religion and pseudo-fascism.

if you had a sense of community and some stake in the welfare of actual people you would probably not be such a parasite. its like your entire thing is just in your head, your cult isnt even bigger than your own individual self. you're the People's Army of One

have the courage to come out and say you believe things you know are not true. you always touch on why irrationality is so important because of "community" and the welfare of "real" people but are too scared to just say you lie to yourself because the real work of figuring out the world and risking your life to actually win is too scary and hard. or maybe you really just can't articulate it since you're so against theory and anyone who uses big words.

this is like the inversion of the usual way to attack me

babyfinland posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

babyfinland posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

babyfinland posted:
baby huey u are the biggest trot in the universe

im glad you're not a trot but since you're also not a marxist all that's left is absurd fantasy like religion and pseudo-fascism.

if you had a sense of community and some stake in the welfare of actual people you would probably not be such a parasite. its like your entire thing is just in your head, your cult isnt even bigger than your own individual self. you're the People's Army of One

have the courage to come out and say you believe things you know are not true. you always touch on why irrationality is so important because of "community" and the welfare of "real" people but are too scared to just say you lie to yourself because the real work of figuring out the world and risking your life to actually win is too scary and hard. or maybe you really just can't articulate it since you're so against theory and anyone who uses big words.

this is like the inversion of the usual way to attack me

whatever this is boring. i don't know you and i don't find your posting very interesting or funny but since this is basically your forum i can't win.

babyhueypnewton posted:
when i say pseudo-fascism i mean all the ideals of fascism: irrationality, community, mythology, idealistic unity of classes

erm... this definition could be applied to every single ideology even marxism lol

babyfinland posted:

discipline posted:
ok I watched all 31 minutes and I only disagree with about 10% of what he said. time to throw the 8lb baby out with the half cup of bathwater I guess.

yeah same. the man has 30 years of experience and scholarship under his belt and it shows

i don't know enough about the whole "maps" thing he was talking about i/r/t the practicality of the two state solution but it really made the ISM/BDS guy interviewing him seem like an ignorant parrot.

i dont like how dismissive he is of the right of return but i totally understand where's coming from with it. his whole point is that if you want to appeal to international law, then you have to do so consistently. if you want to appeal to human rights or justice the one hand, and then the law on the other, then zionists can easily beat you at that game doing the same thing. you have to stick to your principles.

he also makes the point that palestinians should organize their people, and westerners should organize their people. that's how it was done in vietnam, central america, south africa, etc. that means that westerners unfortunately don't get to play big bad bully on the jews and they have to appeal to things like congress and international law if they want to achieve anything aside from cultishness. the lack of understanding this distinction has produced these cults that claim to represent palestinian civil society and the ability to get 50,000 gazans to demonstrate but instead produce demonstrations of 300.

he explicitly says he supports BDS, and that he supports their tactics. he just disapproves of their dishonesty on the issue of israel. they pretend to be agnostic because there is a large contingent of the movement who want the destruction of israel, which conflicts with their goals to appeal to a broad base of people, whom they know won't support an openly anti-israel campaign. one has to be honest with people if you're going to achieve any kind of sustainable, serious victory.

i totally agree with everything he says about the "cults" of maoists and ISM kids and NGO volunteers and such.

gotta side with the fink on this one yall

yeah