#81
Black Belt
Post rating: ~

cars posted:

JohnBeige posted:

I personally doubt entryism is being done as an intentional thing, since ISO and DSA both have prohibitions against dual carding

FWIW Norton's probably being tongue-in-cheek but even assuming he isn't, he's mostly talking about ISO types co-opting Jacobin, not the DSA, which i'm willing to take at their word as nominally independent of each other even given heavy overlap between Jacobin writers and editors and DSA members



thats a worse position tbh since jacobin has been shilling for intervention since lanch

#82
Post rating: +




This kind of needless left-punching, once again, right before the convention which will certainly have MLs attending, is unbelievable to me. And you have the Jacobin editor stoking the fire in the replies. Like at least save it for after. These tweets are motivating me to read more ML stuff I need to get to
#83
Post rating: +
my dream about attending a DSA meeting is that every time i try and say something a room full of men start hooting and braying that i should read china meville
#84
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: ~

JohnBeige posted:

thats a worse position tbh since jacobin has been shilling for intervention since lanch



joking around is usually a pretty good position to be in.

#85
Post rating: +
i, too, think leftist should stop identifying themselves with revolutionary tactics That Actually Workd, now if you'll excuse me i'm off to cheerleader the Enhedslisten for agreeing trans people should also be able to exploit the browns
#86
chickeon
Post rating: +
never seen anything indicating the DSA is anything but a class enemy and overwhelmingly detrimental to our cause. ditto for the craphouse. arguments otherwise seem to just amount to "well they exist and are nominally left and people know about them", while all their actions run counter to marxism and especially anti imperialism. the left wing of fascism
#87
Post rating: +
I think there's a lot of newer members that have halfway decent (or at least could come to have decent) stances on imperialism, but are afraid to confront some of these older more well-established imperialists and the liberal wing, since they are still early on in their development as socialists and might not have the necessary political education. Certainly this is how I feel--I also need to read more ML stuff to be able to properly push back. And because DSA focuses mostly on stuff like single-payer and working with unions and less on international issues, there's also not a ton of opportunities to bring it out into the open and debate without coming across as aggressive--I can't really start hollering about the FSA and calling people imperial shills at a labor working group. In my local, outside of support for BDS, there hasn't been a ton of discussion on solidarity with besieged movements internationally, which is quite bad.

I'd like to stay in the DSA as I like the people I work with in the local but its nauseating to see these people showing their ass and spouting neocon talking points in public. There should be a zero tolerance policy for anyone who cites bellingcat uncritically but this will probably just blow over in a couple of days and people will act like there's nothing's wrong.
#88
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +
i think it's important not to treat organizations as equivalents, as if the DSA is like a half-assed party instead of just an activist club. detailed critiques of its positions don't make much sense unless you want to end up like the maoist group in austin that wrote a long jargon blog post about not being allowed to borrow a room from a bookstore anymore. the DSA has no hope of becoming a coherent revolutionary force in itself but like then treating it as one is a jerk move, it's like showing up at a house party you know will be bad and just yelling insults at nerds. but as an activist club, a lot of the people are nice and cool and we should respect them that way. if you look around for bad signs you're going to find a lot... (read settlers)
#89
Post rating: +

mediumpig posted:


lmao. ah yes the bizarro world outside the US where all the successful revolutions are demsoc and MLs are routinely derided

#90
Post rating: ~

JohnBeige posted:

I personally doubt entryism is being done as an intentional thing, since ISO and DSA both have prohibitions against dual carding (DSA's is explicitly anti demcen) and because ive heard of PSL members in DSA, despite that orgs prohibition on it as well. my reading of this is that a bunch of people joined every org and didnt bother reading the constitutions, an issue most prevalent with at-large members due to the lack of preexisting local organizers. unless one of you is suggesting this is a pre-convention psyop, which is possible but eh.



some dsa locals have excised the anti-democratic centralist rules out of their bylaws so you aren't breaking any rules joining the cpusa or whatever. i'd ask urbandale to be sure but iirc psl prohibits dual membership in other parties so if that's correct joining dsa, which is not a party, doesn't invalidate membership

#91
Post rating: +
sorry but i really think you all need to familiarise yourself with some key democratic socialist texts *hands out copies of perdido street station*
#92
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: ~
the dual-membership rules are sort of overblown because they exist for every organization. it's like a fundamental rule that any organization can purge members that don't share aims and views. the DSA doesn't strictly need them to kick out 'democratic centralists'. obviously 'democratic centralist' organizations have the same rules. like PSL is allowed to kick you out if you join WWP too. i think the courts also give huge leeway for interpreting those rules too, because like, if a church wasn't allowed to kick out a member for not believing it would be nonsensical.
#93
Post rating: +
not every organization needs to enforce dual membership restrictions in order to do that though. it is entirely reasonable to assess someone's suitability for inclusion in a structure based on a positive adherence to a statement of values, a religious creed, a basis of unity, etc regardless of membership in other groups. membership in another organization could certainly be raised as reasonable evidence that someone does not adhere to the values of the organization, but that has to do with the actual values of the other org. automatic disqualification based on dual membership of any kind regardless of context speaks to a stronger degree of political control, which could be acceptable/desirable for a party with very specific aims that demands a high degree of dedication from its membership, but is utterly ridiculous for a glorified social club or whatever
#94
Post rating: +
kicked outta the DSA for telling them that china meville is harry potter for demsocs
#95
Post rating: +++++
Is his new book October bad. I saw Verso had it on sale for $1 so I downloaded if off libgen
#96
Post rating: +

mediumpig posted:

I saw Verso had it on sale for $1 so I downloaded if off libgen


unreal_tournament_holy_shit.wav

#97
Black Belt
Post rating: ~
I've been misreading the PSL Constitution. 'No member shall be a member of any other socialist or communist party in the United States.' DSA National still had the anti DemCen clause in their constitution so branches excising that clause are likely going rogue tbh.

Edited by JohnBeige ()

#98
Post rating: +
ahh, my membership of the american nazi party is still safe
#99
Post rating: +
You can roll with rock or you can (radio edit)
#100
Post rating: +

tears posted:

sorry but i really think you all need to familiarise yourself with some key democratic socialist texts *hands out copies of perdido street station*



Lol true to form I'm actually in the middle of reading that on suggestion from a fellow DSAer

#101
Post rating: ~

JohnBeige posted:

I've been misreading the PSL Constitution. 'No member shall be a member of any other socialist or communist party in the United States.'


interesting. so a year ago it was ok to be both a member of both the PSL and the Green party, but not so much now that GP is explicitly (big-tent) anticapitalist

#102
Post rating: +

rolaids posted:


o w n e d
w
n
e
d

Edited by tears ()

#103
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: ~
is perdido street station better or worse than darkness at noon
#104
Post rating: ~
yes
#105
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: ~

shriekingviolet posted:

automatic disqualification based on dual membership of any kind regardless of context speaks to a stronger degree of political control

discussion of the rule emerged when people noticed it in the bylaws, not because anyone got kicked out. i don't think it's been used except against some trotskyist groups that tried to create new branches to recruit. anyway one of the main people running for national council refers to themselves explicitly as marxist-leninist, which has been a little debate the past few days. obviously in our hard, old hearts he's not a marxist-leninist, but yeah.

#106
[account deactivated]
#107
Black Belt
Post rating: ~

Constantignoble posted:

JohnBeige posted:

I've been misreading the PSL Constitution. 'No member shall be a member of any other socialist or communist party in the United States.'

interesting. so a year ago it was ok to be both a member of both the PSL and the Green party, but not so much now that GP is explicitly (big-tent) anticapitalist



the green party is anti-capitalist(as of last convention), but has not adopted socialism or communism into their platform. it was a point of contention between the two during the election, with the greens asking why we were diverting left attention away from them and psl answering that they were not a socialist party despite trying to take over another socialist party's ballot position in CA (they attempted to run for a peace and freedom party nomination).

notably, the PSL's constitution doesnt bar people from being in DSA, though tbh i dont expect any directed entryist activity is ongoing. i havent heard about it at least.

#108
Post rating: ~

getfiscal posted:

discussion of the rule emerged when people noticed it in the bylaws, not because anyone got kicked out. i don't think it's been used except against some trotskyist groups that tried to create new branches to recruit.


yeah i didn't really know the context of the conversation or disagree with you i just felt like pontificating to no one in particular (<-rhizzone.txt) about bylaw structures because i am a huuuuge fuckin nerd

#109
Post rating: ~

JohnBeige posted:

I've been misreading the PSL Constitution.


a phrase that should be caught

#110
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: +

JohnBeige posted:

the greens



JohnBeige posted:

attempted to run for a peace and freedom party nomination



I wish Ajamu Baraka would tell them to go fuck themselves

#111
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: +
to mention this again because it became a huge deal for some reason, Norton was probably not really suggest that ISO/IST refugees took over Jacoboi and making them write bad articles &neither was I. i jurst like making fun of the ISO because in my past experience they were huge pricks even for Western trots, they tried to fuck with everything we did back in school and we had to keep telling them to fuck off. And they started saying, if we convince someone in town to join ISO can we come & we were like dude... that question answers itself.
#112
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: ~
the pop-culture analogy for ISO is that they are Milhouse in his aspect of Not a meme.
#113
Black Belt
Post rating: ~
i fuckin hate internal org politics
#114
Post rating: +
i love them so much. i have a problem. i don't want help.
#115
bb bourgeoisie
Post rating: ~

cars posted:

to mention this again because it became a huge deal for some reason, Norton was probably not really suggest that ISO/IST refugees took over Jacoboi and making them write bad articles &neither was I. i jurst like making fun of the ISO because in my past experience they were huge pricks even for Western trots, they tried to fuck with everything we did back in school and we had to keep telling them to fuck off. And they started saying, if we convince someone in town to join ISO can we come & we were like dude... that question answers itself.



i assume they are constantly thirsty for articles and will publish anything with even a tinge of red to it

#116
Post rating: ~
they're all crap, just support black liberation orgs and sit down and stfu because you people do more damage than good
#117
Post rating: ~
Erasure is not permitted on the rhizzone. Posters may contribute freely.
#118
"Jpg." - Hank Hill
Post rating: ~

cars posted:

to mention this again because it became a huge deal for some reason, Norton was probably not really suggest that ISO/IST refugees took over Jacoboi and making them write bad articles &neither was I.


#119
[account deactivated]
#120
Post rating: ~
ah, the answer to the ancient riddle "what can defile even the unclean"