The_Boourns_Identity posted:Petrol posted:The_Boourns_Identity posted:
check how i address the Left
No. Real talk, my advice is do not address The Left. it doesn't exist the way you think it does, and you really don't know enough to be doling out advice in the first place.
instead, if you genuinely want to learn, Lurk More. ask questions if you need to, but mostly lurk silently. you might also want to try joining an org if you havent already, but try to keep your mouth shut there most of the time too, and just follow the lead of others and try not to fuck anything up, until such time as you are no longer a noob. ganbatte, flanders-kun.That's fair but I feel I renounced liberalism around 2010 and I've been reading leftist/Marxist/communist stuff since then and I've helped out at the workers defense fund and local socialist organizaxxtion where I used to live. Idk how much anything counts for anything though, to me I think it's just about having your heart in the right place and basic theoretical foundation
That's fair but I feel like somehow in spite of these alleged facts, you just waddled up in here and seriously used the phrase "totalitarian communism" and urinated upon the faces of every single person in human history who wrote, fought for, and died for that "leftist/Marxist/communist stuff" in your fox news op-ed.
But lets run with your theory that communism needs christian ethics. That's what you want to lead with, so develop it, flesh it out a bit. You have a great concept or something, I guess, but it just seems like maybe you went a little thin on some of the practical details which will help it work in observable reality.
Many catastrophic communists misguidedly see their brutal ideology of failure as a means of elevating the poor and working class of the world out of crushing poverty which has somehow sprung up organically and inexplicably in the third world, like an unexpected prank from an omnipotent, omniscient omniphiliac who's just had an off day for approximately 50% of his best guess of the entire lifespan of creation. Please provide some real-world practical applications for the use of Christian Ethics by those Communists desiring to elevate the working class of, for example, Africa and/or South America from the hopeless depths of poverty and oppression.
Because you're obviously well versed in the subject, and you've clearly put a lot of thought into this, I would like you to focus specifically only on those christian ethics which have not yet been APPLIED repeatedly to the bodies and cultures of the civilizations which existed on those continents for millennia before being introduced to totalitarian communism by the Spanish collectivistatadors and other waves of bolshevik thugs and their so-called "Working Man's Burden" to bring the light of civilization and the 20th century experimental communist principle of chattel slavery to the darker continents over the past thousand years or two.
I come from a long lineage of oppressed working class peoples, and while I personally admire the Liberation theology strain of catholicism, catholics i've spoken too seem to reject that as a radical unofficial tangent of the church and disavow it firmly.
i look to the christian spirituality that strengthened the victims and resisters of southern slavery, and the ethical framework invoked by Dr. King.
Dr King was no catholic he was literally named after the man who broke away from the catholic church.
that's not to say i don't welcome catholics along in this journey, but i should be clear that my Christian faith is strictly based on scriptures, not the traditions of the catholic church.
MarxUltor posted:The_Boourns_Identity posted:Petrol posted:The_Boourns_Identity posted:
check how i address the Left
No. Real talk, my advice is do not address The Left. it doesn't exist the way you think it does, and you really don't know enough to be doling out advice in the first place.
instead, if you genuinely want to learn, Lurk More. ask questions if you need to, but mostly lurk silently. you might also want to try joining an org if you havent already, but try to keep your mouth shut there most of the time too, and just follow the lead of others and try not to fuck anything up, until such time as you are no longer a noob. ganbatte, flanders-kun.That's fair but I feel I renounced liberalism around 2010 and I've been reading leftist/Marxist/communist stuff since then and I've helped out at the workers defense fund and local socialist organizaxxtion where I used to live. Idk how much anything counts for anything though, to me I think it's just about having your heart in the right place and basic theoretical foundation
That's fair but I feel like somehow in spite of these alleged facts, you just waddled up in here and seriously used the phrase "totalitarian communism" and urinated upon the faces of every single person in human history who wrote, fought for, and died for that "leftist/Marxist/communist stuff" in your fox news op-ed.
But lets run with your theory that communism needs christian ethics. That's what you want to lead with, so develop it, flesh it out a bit. You have a great concept or something, I guess, but it just seems like maybe you went a little thin on some of the practical details which will help it work in observable reality.
Many catastrophic communists misguidedly see their brutal ideology of failure as a means of elevating the poor and working class of the world out of crushing poverty which has somehow sprung up organically and inexplicably in the third world, like an unexpected prank from an omnipotent, omniscient omniphiliac who's just had an off day for approximately 50% of his best guess of the entire lifespan of creation. Please provide some real-world practical applications for the use of Christian Ethics by those Communists desiring to elevate the working class of, for example, Africa and/or South America from the hopeless depths of poverty and oppression.
Because you're obviously well versed in the subject, and you've clearly put a lot of thought into this, I would like you to focus specifically only on those christian ethics which have not yet been APPLIED repeatedly to the bodies and cultures of the civilizations which existed on those continents for millennia before being introduced to totalitarian communism by the Spanish collectivistatadors and other waves of bolshevik thugs and their so-called "Working Man's Burden" to bring the light of civilization and the 20th century experimental communist principle of chattel slavery to the darker continents over the past thousand years or two.
you're misreading my point. i'm not suggesting that some parts of the world have never practiced christian ethics or whatever. i'm saying that specifically for communism to be spread in the hostile environment of capitalist hegemony, an approach similar to evangelical christianity could be employed to win over your friends and co workers instead of just being that weird disheveled loner who always smells like wine and reads weird books
The_Boourns_Identity posted:i'm saying that specifically for communism to be spread in the hostile environment of capitalist hegemony, an approach similar to evangelical christianity could be employed to win over your friends and co workers instead of just being that weird disheveled loner who always smells like wine and reads weird books
This is why I hate Christians, they are so condescending. They don't know how to turn it off. "That weird disheveled loner who smells like wine" is you being condescending. The phrase doesn't describe the posters here or Communists at large. The main posters who are responsible for this website are successful at their jobs. Personally, I talk to people about communism all the time and they're like yeah, capitalism fucking sucks. What weird books are you referring to, Settlers? People don't think what I read is weird, because I show them what I'm reading and why I'm reading it.
You are assuming that evangelical Christianity spreads because it's evangelical. But actually, the act of evangelism is a demonstration of faith to oneself and to others already in the church. Christianity spreads because its members indoctrinate their children and take advantage of suffering people. It's cozy with lots of NGOs and does missionary "work" alongside pushing US interests abroad, which gives it the appearance of being a good, bedrock activity (or else why would there have been missionaries for so long?) In fact the historic purpose of missionaries is to instill the locals with work-discipline.
there is no doubt that 20th century communist projects failed. in fact, they failed in catastrophic and horrific fashion, and should never be repeated.
one of the crucial aspects of 20th century totalitarian communism was rigid atheism.
exactly which point did I misread wherein I just read that you just called Mao and Lenin a bunch of punkass bitches
swampman posted:"That weird disheveled loner who smells like wine" is you being condescending. The phrase doesn't describe the posters here
*hangs head, slowly raises paw*
The_Boourns_Identity posted:Evangelical Christians, similar to communists, see themselves as holding to an unpopular truth in a hostile world, trying to flip the hearts and minds of their brothers and sisters so that they may liberate themselves from that which keeps them in bondage.
Evangelical christians aren't actually pushing an unpopular truth in a hostile environment, they're a cozy established institution that reaps massive profit and influence for themselves in collaboration with the capitalist class. The lie of their
"isolation in the face of a hostile world" serves as a galvanizing myth to make their congregation feel heroic and special, a histrionic persecution complex that demands urgent action (of unpaid volunteer labour and delicious tithe dollars) and co-opts the righteousness of genuinely oppressed peoples to soothe the conscience of their oppressors.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:For the marxist: the bondage is capitalist wage labor, it is exploitation, it is perpetual joblessness, it is constantly being at the threat of destitution and having no recourse. it is right to work states. it is neoliberalism.
The church, especially the titan that is american evangelicalism, is an institution actively complicit in all these ills. Their congregations are collaborators, some knowingly and some not. The enemy of the Left isn't nebulous political ideas and creeds, it is the structures that cause harm by enacting them in reality.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:nobody likes having somebody else come and tell them what to believe, telling them the their views are wrong , or approaching with the aim of converting. likewise, no-one likes being told that politically, that everything they believe is wrong, that they are living under an illusion or that they victims of exploitation.
Actually, this is exactly how the majority of actual religious conversions operate. You approach a vulnerable person or group that is in distress, explain that you have an explanation for their distress, and tell them it can be resolved by joining you. The humanitarian services you name later aren't the means of conversion, they're the means of singling out people who are receptive targets. Whether it is modern individual emotional vulnerability (most single converts are at low points in their lives,) or the mass vulnerability of oppressed peoples (historic convert or die campaigns, offering food and shelter to the destitute on the condition or "suggestion" that they attend mass, never mind that your rich white friends are the reason they're destitute in the first place.)
Plus, you're never going to get anyone to really be on your side if you're sheepish about what you believe: "You will know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
The_Boourns_Identity posted:It is through Christian ethics being APPLIED, and not simply preached, that one is able outreach the hearts and minds of thine brethren.
As above, this is only true in so far as the priest is the carrot to the stick of the cop and soldier. You should also bear in mind that the vast majority of believers aren't converts at all: they're simply born into a dominant cultural practice and don't leave it.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:THIS is the lesson that the Left needs today. This is why leftists create self-serving echo chambers, but are unable to convince their neighbors, friends, or even family members of the truth of their views.
First, leftists don't create self-serving echo chambers, universities create self-serving echo chambers. Second, actual practicing leftist organizations are in fact active in compassionate work trying to find and meet the needs of their communities, they simply aren't as visible because they lack the resources and exposure granted to capitalism friendly collaborators. The solution to both of these perceived problems of yours is to go out and join an actual organization.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:One of the crucial aspects of 20th century totalitarian communism was rigid atheism. New Atheism one might say.
The atheism of 20th century leftist states and the New Atheist movement in vogue in the west diverged in their philosophical foundations more than a century ago, and they never converged. New Atheism is New specifically because the movement is a (barely) philosophical school entirely distinct from the leftist atheism that had been previously dominant. Even atheism studies in catholic academia (a goofy field) would attest to this. This claim makes absolutely no sense to anyone.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:Drawing lines in the sand, and being stubborn, fighting with neighbors and friends will only make you an OutKast, and will only make the Left targets of further persecution.
You have the causality backwards here. Leftists aren't magically stubborn disagreeable as an innate quality of being Left, and they aren't prone to infighting and divisiveness more than any other social group that contains hurting, struggling people has trouble getting along. The Left is deliberately persecuted and divided against itself by the actions of spook sabotage, and there is a prodigious amount of material evidence and documentation that shows this to have actually happened. It's not even controversial! If you think it's just because of a bad attitude you are swallowing a load of serious bullshit.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:With every hateful act or aggressive action that the Left makes, the State is further justified in reacting by bolstering and strengthening a totalitarian response.
Do you really believe that the state is justified in a totalitarian response against Leftists? What happened to all that talk of christian love and compassion. Yet you seem to take issue with a totalitarian response against the hateful and aggressive actions of capitalism earlier in your post. Have you considered that you might be exercising a double standard in favour of the cops, the bankers, and the generals? This is a disgusting thing for you to be saying and you shouldn't be surprised at all when you make posts like this and people answer with hostility and derision.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:This is why I suggest that Christian Ethics and Communism must unite for the Left to be successful in the 21st Century.
I've been involved with a lot of different christian denominations, communities and cultures. I have no idea what this monolithic Christian Ethics you're talking about might be.
The Church as an institution is one of the means by which capitalist global imperialism exercises its violent hegemony, and it doesn't take much scrutiny its leaders are willing collaborators who profit enormously from the relationship. The Church shamelessly exploits and exercises ideological control over its congregations, and nowhere is this plainer than in the Evangelical world of prosperity gospel, hysteric xenophobia, and seats of honour at political conventions.
If you have the misfortune of taking the time to work in depth with christian organizing, you will soon see that this rot extends all the way down to the roots. Religious orgs are rife with petty divisiveness, unhealthy relationships, fiscal corruption, coverups of rape violence and abuse. Brother, before you criticize the mote in the Left's eye, perhaps you should consider the plank in your own. The actual materially existing actions of churchgoers do not fit with the supposed christian creed, their religion is simple masturbatory self-righteousness and blind support for the forces of dominance. Those who sincerely want a better world and have open, critical eyes inevitably move away from the church and its organizations, even when they keep their individual faith. If they don't leave voluntarily, they face persecution, ostracism and ejection from the church community, sometimes violently.
If you think I am talking too much about the actions institutions, not of a driving ethic or the faith of individual people, consider: you haven't described any kind of actual guidelines or plan of action of your own behind a vague christian ethic, the actions of individual people cohere into the collective actions of communities and add up to the actions of broader intitutions, and the horrors of christendom as an institution that currently exists are our only material evidence of the results of the so-called christian ethic. I don't care what people profess to, I care about the consequences of their actions: "Faith without works is dead," if you will. The most christian thing for christian people to do would be to dismantle and abolish the clergy that keeps them in chains.
You have a clear compassion for people and a need to do something with it, but I'd advise you to temper that by looking at the actual activities of those around you, not just what they profess to. Save yourself the heartbreak, lost time and wasted effort. The love and compassion of christianity is backed up by a good publicity campaign afforded to it by its complicity with the powers that be, not by its actions.
swampman posted:The_Boourns_Identity posted:
i'm saying that specifically for communism to be spread in the hostile environment of capitalist hegemony, an approach similar to evangelical christianity could be employed to win over your friends and co workers instead of just being that weird disheveled loner who always smells like wine and reads weird books
This is why I hate Christians, they are so condescending. They don't know how to turn it off. "That weird disheveled loner who smells like wine" is you being condescending. The phrase doesn't describe the posters here or Communists at large. The main posters who are responsible for this website are successful at their jobs. Personally, I talk to people about communism all the time and they're like yeah, capitalism fucking sucks. What weird books are you referring to, Settlers? People don't think what I read is weird, because I show them what I'm reading and why I'm reading it.
You are assuming that evangelical Christianity spreads because it's evangelical. But actually, the act of evangelism is a demonstration of faith to oneself and to others already in the church. Christianity spreads because its members indoctrinate their children and take advantage of suffering people. It's cozy with lots of NGOs and does missionary "work" alongside pushing US interests abroad, which gives it the appearance of being a good, bedrock activity (or else why would there have been missionaries for so long?) In fact the historic purpose of missionaries is to instill the locals with work-discipline.
friend, my jokes are self-referential.
i live in a very conservative state and often feel isolated because of my views, i'm just making a joke about how i often perceive myself in the eyes of others
Of course this led me to being ostracized and isolated, and the more I critically examined the teachings in the church the more I found myself agreeing with hard line New Atheists.
Eventually I went all in, I was reading and accepting all of the New Atheist literature that I could find, and considered myself an atheist too.
Fast forward a decade and I've discovered faith on my own, not because it was told to me, but because it's been shown to me. My faith today is not like many church goers who show up on sunday and then vote GOP and shoot someone in a hoodie.
In fact, I sincerely despair at the corrupt partnership between US churches and right-wing political organizations.
Because of my vocal political views & insistence upon honesty, I have yet to find a church that I can call home. Instead, I seek out sermons on the regular, study my bible, pray every day, and try to reach out individually to other people of faith that I encounter in my life or online. I am open about my political views and why I feel my faith is best applied through Left wing politics. I find myself much happier this way and having much more fruitful conversations with believers and nonbelievers alike.
One of my big goals is to not only reach the Left with a message of Christianity, but to reach Christians with a message of Leftism. I sincerely want to write about how corrupt and hypocritical the marriage between popular US megachurches and right wing ideology is. I would like to see the fiery radicalism and progressive political will of many southern black churches spread into the mainstream.
When I speak about Evangelical christianity, I don't mean the Jesus Camp style, I'm talking about the kind where someone becomes your friend and helps you out and you trust them and when you are comfortable or when you ask, openly shares their views on faith, or simply practices what they preach, and lets their light shine on its own without trying to speak about it.
gyrofry posted:the reduction of "science" to "things that are like engineering" has been one of the principal tools for delegitimizing marxism
the only true science to me is the Hegelian Wissenschaft
shriekingviolet posted:A long, long time ago, I thought kind of like you did, and tried working with Church people and organizations. So I'm going to try to be nice to hopefully spare you some grief. Following this path will bring you nothing but suffering, frustration and guilt, not to mention the harm you will do to others along the way. Or even worse, you'll be a successful monster.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:
Evangelical Christians, similar to communists, see themselves as holding to an unpopular truth in a hostile world, trying to flip the hearts and minds of their brothers and sisters so that they may liberate themselves from that which keeps them in bondage.
Evangelical christians aren't actually pushing an unpopular truth in a hostile environment, they're a cozy established institution that reaps massive profit and influence for themselves in collaboration with the capitalist class. The lie of their
"isolation in the face of a hostile world" serves as a galvanizing myth to make their congregation feel heroic and special, a histrionic persecution complex that demands urgent action (of unpaid volunteer labour and delicious tithe dollars) and co-opts the righteousness of genuinely oppressed peoples to soothe the conscience of their oppressors.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:
For the marxist: the bondage is capitalist wage labor, it is exploitation, it is perpetual joblessness, it is constantly being at the threat of destitution and having no recourse. it is right to work states. it is neoliberalism.
The church, especially the titan that is american evangelicalism, is an institution actively complicit in all these ills. Their congregations are collaborators, some knowingly and some not. The enemy of the Left isn't nebulous political ideas and creeds, it is the structures that cause harm by enacting them in reality.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:
nobody likes having somebody else come and tell them what to believe, telling them the their views are wrong , or approaching with the aim of converting. likewise, no-one likes being told that politically, that everything they believe is wrong, that they are living under an illusion or that they victims of exploitation.
Actually, this is exactly how the majority of actual religious conversions operate. You approach a vulnerable person or group that is in distress, explain that you have an explanation for their distress, and tell them it can be resolved by joining you. The humanitarian services you name later aren't the means of conversion, they're the means of singling out people who are receptive targets. Whether it is modern individual emotional vulnerability (most single converts are at low points in their lives,) or the mass vulnerability of oppressed peoples (historic convert or die campaigns, offering food and shelter to the destitute on the condition or "suggestion" that they attend mass, never mind that your rich white friends are the reason they're destitute in the first place.)
Plus, you're never going to get anyone to really be on your side if you're sheepish about what you believe: "You will know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
The_Boourns_Identity posted:
It is through Christian ethics being APPLIED, and not simply preached, that one is able outreach the hearts and minds of thine brethren.
As above, this is only true in so far as the priest is the carrot to the stick of the cop and soldier. You should also bear in mind that the vast majority of believers aren't converts at all: they're simply born into a dominant cultural practice and don't leave it.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:
THIS is the lesson that the Left needs today. This is why leftists create self-serving echo chambers, but are unable to convince their neighbors, friends, or even family members of the truth of their views.
First, leftists don't create self-serving echo chambers, universities create self-serving echo chambers. Second, actual practicing leftist organizations are in fact active in compassionate work trying to find and meet the needs of their communities, they simply aren't as visible because they lack the resources and exposure granted to capitalism friendly collaborators. The solution to both of these perceived problems of yours is to go out and join an actual organization.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:
One of the crucial aspects of 20th century totalitarian communism was rigid atheism. New Atheism one might say.
The atheism of 20th century leftist states and the New Atheist movement in vogue in the west diverged in their philosophical foundations more than a century ago, and they never converged. New Atheism is New specifically because the movement is a (barely) philosophical school entirely distinct from the leftist atheism that had been previously dominant. Even atheism studies in catholic academia (a goofy field) would attest to this. This claim makes absolutely no sense to anyone.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:
Drawing lines in the sand, and being stubborn, fighting with neighbors and friends will only make you an OutKast, and will only make the Left targets of further persecution.
You have the causality backwards here. Leftists aren't magically stubborn disagreeable as an innate quality of being Left, and they aren't prone to infighting and divisiveness more than any other social group that contains hurting, struggling people has trouble getting along. The Left is deliberately persecuted and divided against itself by the actions of spook sabotage, and there is a prodigious amount of material evidence and documentation that shows this to have actually happened. It's not even controversial! If you think it's just because of a bad attitude you are swallowing a load of serious bullshit.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:
With every hateful act or aggressive action that the Left makes, the State is further justified in reacting by bolstering and strengthening a totalitarian response.
Do you really believe that the state is justified in a totalitarian response against Leftists? What happened to all that talk of christian love and compassion. Yet you seem to take issue with a totalitarian response against the hateful and aggressive actions of capitalism earlier in your post. Have you considered that you might be exercising a double standard in favour of the cops, the bankers, and the generals? This is a disgusting thing for you to be saying and you shouldn't be surprised at all when you make posts like this and people answer with hostility and derision.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:
This is why I suggest that Christian Ethics and Communism must unite for the Left to be successful in the 21st Century.
I've been involved with a lot of different christian denominations, communities and cultures. I have no idea what this monolithic Christian Ethics you're talking about might be.
The Church as an institution is one of the means by which capitalist global imperialism exercises its violent hegemony, and it doesn't take much scrutiny its leaders are willing collaborators who profit enormously from the relationship. The Church shamelessly exploits and exercises ideological control over its congregations, and nowhere is this plainer than in the Evangelical world of prosperity gospel, hysteric xenophobia, and seats of honour at political conventions.
If you have the misfortune of taking the time to work in depth with christian organizing, you will soon see that this rot extends all the way down to the roots. Religious orgs are rife with petty divisiveness, unhealthy relationships, fiscal corruption, coverups of rape violence and abuse. Brother, before you criticize the mote in the Left's eye, perhaps you should consider the plank in your own. The actual materially existing actions of churchgoers do not fit with the supposed christian creed, their religion is simple masturbatory self-righteousness and blind support for the forces of dominance. Those who sincerely want a better world and have open, critical eyes inevitably move away from the church and its organizations, even when they keep their individual faith. If they don't leave voluntarily, they face persecution, ostracism and ejection from the church community, sometimes violently.
If you think I am talking too much about the actions institutions, not of a driving ethic or the faith of individual people, consider: you haven't described any kind of actual guidelines or plan of action of your own behind a vague christian ethic, the actions of individual people cohere into the collective actions of communities and add up to the actions of broader intitutions, and the horrors of christendom as an institution that currently exists are our only material evidence of the results of the so-called christian ethic. I don't care what people profess to, I care about the consequences of their actions: "Faith without works is dead," if you will. The most christian thing for christian people to do would be to dismantle and abolish the clergy that keeps them in chains.
You have a clear compassion for people and a need to do something with it, but I'd advise you to temper that by looking at the actual activities of those around you, not just what they profess to. Save yourself the heartbreak, lost time and wasted effort. The love and compassion of christianity is backed up by a good publicity campaign afforded to it by its complicity with the powers that be, not by its actions.
thanks for these well articulated and good points, I don't disagree with them
glomper_stomper posted:also, i don't think amorality corresponds at all with spirituality. that's a weird thing to say.
This thread is going weird quickly, so I'd like to step aside to briefly discuss this point. Can you extrapolate some more? I don't think this is what I said and perhaps I was vague. There are abundant examples of amoral spiritual leaders, but my overall point is that the language of Christianity is easily read as revolutionary and I think being willing to articulate our thoughts using Christian vernacular is something worth considering.
edit: I'm a weird disheveled loner but I smell of rakija and also am not alone.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:i mean, if it's safe to assume that a good portion of anyone worthy of being called proletariat are religious and have traditional values,
it's not safe to assume that, but even if it was,
The_Boourns_Identity posted:then shouldn't the proper approach to winning their support be to meet them where they are rather than telling them how stupid they are for clinging to their guns and religion *shem*
you seem to have confused liberals for communists??
i appreciate the fact that you've apparently spent the past 5 or 6 years reading marxist stuff and doing marxist things, but if that's the case it's disturbing how little you seem to have learned
Petrol posted:gas thread, ban OP
Petrol posted:The_Boourns_Identity posted:i mean, if it's safe to assume that a good portion of anyone worthy of being called proletariat are religious and have traditional values,
it's not safe to assume that, but even if it was,
The_Boourns_Identity posted:then shouldn't the proper approach to winning their support be to meet them where they are rather than telling them how stupid they are for clinging to their guns and religion *shem*
you seem to have confused liberals for communists??
i appreciate the fact that you've apparently spent the past 5 or 6 years reading marxist stuff and doing marxist things, but if that's the case it's disturbing how little you seem to have learned
I combat liberalism so much that it's created converse reflex to see those trying to combat me as liberals, thus I throw shade by implying such.
As for what are Christian ethics, here's a good foundation:
Matthew 5:1-48 KJVS
… And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you , and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them , the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. …
The_Boourns_Identity posted:MarxUltor posted:The_Boourns_Identity posted:Petrol posted:The_Boourns_Identity posted:
check how i address the Left
No. Real talk, my advice is do not address The Left. it doesn't exist the way you think it does, and you really don't know enough to be doling out advice in the first place.
instead, if you genuinely want to learn, Lurk More. ask questions if you need to, but mostly lurk silently. you might also want to try joining an org if you havent already, but try to keep your mouth shut there most of the time too, and just follow the lead of others and try not to fuck anything up, until such time as you are no longer a noob. ganbatte, flanders-kun.That's fair but I feel I renounced liberalism around 2010 and I've been reading leftist/Marxist/communist stuff since then and I've helped out at the workers defense fund and local socialist organizaxxtion where I used to live. Idk how much anything counts for anything though, to me I think it's just about having your heart in the right place and basic theoretical foundation
That's fair but I feel like somehow in spite of these alleged facts, you just waddled up in here and seriously used the phrase "totalitarian communism" and urinated upon the faces of every single person in human history who wrote, fought for, and died for that "leftist/Marxist/communist stuff" in your fox news op-ed.
But lets run with your theory that communism needs christian ethics. That's what you want to lead with, so develop it, flesh it out a bit. You have a great concept or something, I guess, but it just seems like maybe you went a little thin on some of the practical details which will help it work in observable reality.
Many catastrophic communists misguidedly see their brutal ideology of failure as a means of elevating the poor and working class of the world out of crushing poverty which has somehow sprung up organically and inexplicably in the third world, like an unexpected prank from an omnipotent, omniscient omniphiliac who's just had an off day for approximately 50% of his best guess of the entire lifespan of creation. Please provide some real-world practical applications for the use of Christian Ethics by those Communists desiring to elevate the working class of, for example, Africa and/or South America from the hopeless depths of poverty and oppression.
Because you're obviously well versed in the subject, and you've clearly put a lot of thought into this, I would like you to focus specifically only on those christian ethics which have not yet been APPLIED repeatedly to the bodies and cultures of the civilizations which existed on those continents for millennia before being introduced to totalitarian communism by the Spanish collectivistatadors and other waves of bolshevik thugs and their so-called "Working Man's Burden" to bring the light of civilization and the 20th century experimental communist principle of chattel slavery to the darker continents over the past thousand years or two.you're misreading my point. i'm not suggesting that some parts of the world have never practiced christian ethics or whatever. i'm saying that specifically for communism to be spread in the hostile environment of capitalist hegemony, an approach similar to evangelical christianity could be employed to win over your friends and co workers instead of just being that weird disheveled loner who always smells like wine and reads weird books
what does this even mean though, "approach similar to evangelical christianity"? become marxist televangelists or what
babyhueypnewton posted:Zizek's whole Christian Marxism thing bothers me but I don't know why since I know actual zero about christianity. it also seems to rely on anti-semitic stereotypes about judaism. is that gonna be in the anti-zizek megathread that's gonna put rhizzone on the map?
yeah this is true. Zizek should not be used for any liberatory Catholic or Christian political project.
Edited by goodposthaver ()
glomper_stomper posted:but extremely difficult to adapt to a materialist philosophy in which the highest power is progressive social production involving human beings rather than divine spirits.
ya see. im not so sure why it needs to re-invent itself in that way. like, the notion of a higher power than humans is not per se reactionary. what matters is how that notion is utilized.
your_not_aleksandr posted:*nasally* If I "throw the shade" then perhaps my point will come across clearer.
Ah yes, so it seems messaging grounded in love rather than anger is more effective
I
roseweird posted:The_Boourns_Identity posted:I combat liberalism so much that it's created converse reflex to see those trying to combat me as liberals, thus I throw shade by implying such.
commmie flanders i believe in you but if youre concerned with messaging you #1 gotta stop talking like such a nerd
Thank you sir for the feedback and advice, I can try this but it won't be easy
babyhueypnewton posted:Zizek's whole Christian Marxism thing bothers me but I don't know why since I know actual zero about christianity. it also seems to rely on anti-semitic stereotypes about judaism. is that gonna be in the anti-zizek megathread that's gonna put rhizzone on the map?
I'm don't get what you mean about anti-Semitic stereotypes needed for his position, could you please explain?
I personally find his argument that Christianity is at its core radical and subversive, particularly in the domain of the Symbolic, which is precisely where the capitalist dominates via ownership or private property.