Urbandale posted:

leftist orgs are hit with the accusation all the time and it certainly doesnt help that there are genuine problems. leftbook runs its own unintentional cointelpro, fueled off good intention, halftruth and smugness. the result of the two is that huge chunks of leftists are dissuaded from doing stuff.

Hahahahahhahaha "anyone who thinks x lefty organization has a rape problem is basically CIA"

My sarcasm detector is weak and it's early here, but this and your previous statements are chauvinist and full of moralism based on assumptions. This kind of behavior is anti-communist beyond belief

Edited by SparksBandung (Aug. 4, 2016 11:34:06)

glomper_stomper posted:

i wonder why people aren't given to more freedom of movement between parties to cultivate a broader range of experience and theory. you might end up with an active core of organizers and cadres well-placed and well-disposed to actually analyze regional conditions, then national conditions through more coordinated efforts, the communist movement itself, and to help the cause of the oppressed and exploited classes through whatever means available.

i don't think a country like the US (or probably canada) is well-suited to vanguard parties yet. communists haven't managed to overcome the inherent geographical obstacles of a country where the urban centers are so overdeveloped and populous they tend to overwhelm any grassroots organization whatsoever and the suburban and rural sections are so sparsely populated and isolated on almost every conceivable level that it's exceedingly difficult to reach out to people in general, especially without private jets or direct lines to obsequious 24 hour news network producers.

they should be able to do the good lord's work wherever they are and i can see how parties could potentially inhibit the growth of any such movement, especially if their resources are already stretched in the urban centers. there should rather be an informal network of cells, comprised of exploited workers and to a lesser extent progressive professionals, spanning almost the entire country that would retain communist principles and act on them accordingly. it would potentially provide the real backbone to any vanguard organization capable of seizing any sort of political, social, or economic power.

a mass base like that would also provide a check against the familiar ambit of certain arrogant students and academics who subsist on political capital and the development of hopeless charlatans like bob avakian.

This is an excellent point. Of all the Canadian organizations I've listed, my sympathies are most with Revolutionary Initiative for these reasons. The other parties give them a hard time for seeming disinterested in forming a "vanguard party" but they raise similar points to the ones you've mentioned - the decadent overdevelopment of city centers, lack of recent experience with truly revolutionary efforts, etc. They talk about this at length in a theoretical work written predominantly by a guy called Kenny Lake in The Spectre That Still Haunts

SparksBandung posted:

Btw you've yet to clarify whether or not you think the FRSO has an issue with sexual assault

Protip: the onus is actually on you to explain your position since you're the one who raised this in the first place

glomper_stomper posted:

i wonder why people aren't given to more freedom of movement between parties to cultivate a broader range of experience and theory. you might end up with an active core of organizers and cadres well-placed and well-disposed to actually analyze regional conditions, then national conditions through more coordinated efforts, the communist movement itself, and to help the cause of the oppressed and exploited classes through whatever means available.

i don't think a country like the US (or probably canada) is well-suited to vanguard parties yet. communists haven't managed to overcome the inherent geographical obstacles of a country where the urban centers are so overdeveloped and populous they tend to overwhelm any grassroots organization whatsoever and the suburban and rural sections are so sparsely populated and isolated on almost every conceivable level that it's exceedingly difficult to reach out to people in general, especially without private jets or direct lines to obsequious 24 hour news network producers.

they should be able to do the good lord's work wherever they are and i can see how parties could potentially inhibit the growth of any such movement, especially if their resources are already stretched in the urban centers. there should rather be an informal network of cells, comprised of exploited workers and to a lesser extent progressive professionals, spanning almost the entire country that would retain communist principles and act on them accordingly. it would potentially provide the real backbone to any vanguard organization capable of seizing any sort of political, social, or economic power.

a mass base like that would also provide a check against the familiar ambit of certain arrogant students and academics who subsist on political capital and the development of hopeless charlatans like bob avakian.

yeah this is exactly it. the only thing i would be comfortable joining right now would be a geographically limited org. i am not at all interested in being on the hook for some sketchy meeting someone in new york had with a russian nationalist or weird gender policy in chicago or florida. btw frso's gender policy is weird even if they dont enable rapists or whatever the charge is.

they are also far too secretive and im about done with it honestly. it makes it unreasonably difficult to work with them on anything and shuts down discussion, not that their internal theoretical production is anything remarkable.

at the same time i am interested in industrial concentration, prison work, production of analysis/theory and maybe running Honeckerite candidates for school board or whatever as a troll but also serious. basically everything aside from student bullshit, endless emergency protests and symbolic electoral campaigns. at the same time i am becoming even more ecumenical about, for instance, working with trots.

that said ive been working with a wwp group here that is starting to form a branch and i like the way theyre going about things (again, branches of these groups are basically separate micro-parties already but people pretend theres some sort of commonality and that its linked to Marcyism or post-trotskyism or whatever when it isnt at all) but im not going to join. i am also about >< this close to putting the fact that im a communist into the grapevine at work and letting whatever happens happens. im near the 2000 hour mark of my probationary period and enough people know me that i feel like they couldn't just brush me off. we will see. truly, as mao tse tung once said, "the situation is pretty good in some ways but also weird."

SparksBandung posted:

Urbandale posted:

c_man posted:
Urbandale posted:
it certainly doesnt help that there are genuine problems
"the problems are real but if you talk about them you're the cia"


some problems are real and some people are the cia. im in favor of public exposure of rapists when parties fail to take care of the problem internally. i believe the steps frso took when this issue came up were appropriate given the situation in question and that the censure was appropriate as well. i believe that the steps the swp in the uk took were inadequate, as were the steps the iso took (this is me talking about iso's san diego brancha while ago). i dont think its contradictory to demand accountability but also not talk mad shit if you actually dont know a damn thing about the situation in question. i think this has been a conversation on here before regarding the psl/wwp split.

Lol, what is this "you actually don't know a damn thing about the situation" stuff you keep alluding to? For all you know I could have been closely connected to the incidents and for all I know you could be some asshole troll in Belarus.

Seriously, this is a moot point on the internet.

Btw you've yet to clarify whether or not you think the FRSO has an issue with sexual assault and how it is addressed and have done nothing but deflect this issue by calling people who have echoed these allegations part of some COINTELPRO plot. I guess Eldrige Cleaver's wife was part of some sort of master CIA plot and had those bruises painted on her by master CIA makeup artists too.

Do you know what chapter the allegations surround or anything involved?

And no, I explicitly said it wasn't cointelpro. Its leftists fueled by good intentions and self righteousness picking up on stories individuals actually unconnected to the incident began to spread.

Edited by Urbandale (Aug. 5, 2016 01:22:12)

Urbandale posted:

entirely seperate from whatever actual complaint there is.

lmao

toutvabien posted:

can't this be the organization i join? this website, on the internet

Yes! You're now a member. I will send you a laminated card in the mail. You now have access to the secret PDF subforum. If your access doesn't work, contact German Joey.