#41
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: +

getfiscal posted:

i don't think the 'academic left' (in the sense of like contemporary continental theory or whatever) of that sort is actually all that big or even influential,



in the u.s. they're not that big but are in a way influential for the same reasons, because they represent a deep canyon across the years between radicals and cause active harm in many cases simply by sticking around & suggesting to young people that life as a u.s. communist always ends in the academy. except me, i had great teachers and reading badiou forced me to accept Marxism-Leninism.

#42
bb bourgeoisie
Post rating: +
Anything associated with the complacent faculty staff of ivory tower university staff is culturally objectionable to the American working class. Outside of maybe New England, anyway. Universities and their staff serve to reinforce the status quo. Maybe that would change if there were a draft for an unpopular war, again, but I wouldn't hold my breath. They mostly just produce bad critical writing and voice fantasies related to back when they were an important institution.

For my money, the best way to help working class people achieve revolutionary consciousness is probably via the Steven Sondheim musical, Assassins.
#43
Post rating: ~
that brings us into a bind because we need education, so we need to take struggles and histories in the university seriously

Edited by animedad ()

#44
mt.real
Post rating: +

animedad posted:

that brings us into a bind because certainly we can't rely on current Marxist orgs to educate because they don't have the resources, we need to take struggles and histories in the university seriously


let me just call up all the influential marxist professors that are left...

*opens rolodex, housefly spirals out*

... oh

#45
bb bourgeoisie
Post rating: ~
I can only assume that post referred to somewhere outside of north america.
#46
mt.real
Post rating: ~
let's just all give up together. where's that hedge fund thread
#47
bb bourgeoisie
Post rating: +

animedad posted:

that brings us into a bind because we need education, so we need to take struggles and histories in the university seriously



there are only one group of people i have ever met living more in the past than the rosy-eyed fifties-idealizing racist conservatives, and it's my university professors remembering the seventies. these people played their part in history and are done. they are not the guardians of a secret marxist flame.

#48
Post rating: ~

camera_obscura posted:

animedad posted:

that brings us into a bind because we need education, so we need to take struggles and histories in the university seriously

there are only one group of people i have ever met living more in the past than the rosy-eyed fifties-idealizing racist conservatives, and it's my university professors remembering the seventies. these people played their part in history and are done. they are not the guardians of a secret marxist flame.


all institutions are changeable. struggles in the unis usually mean more working class people get educated

#49
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +
Pessimism is revisionist.
#50
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +
"Wow, this Hitler guy actually took power, communism will never win now!"

A few years later.... large sections of Europe and Asia are now led by Marxist-Leninists... with only a few bumps on the road there.
#51
chickeon
Post rating: +
the OP isn't talking about regular working class people he's talking about wasting time and effort using One Weird Tricks to try and convert the equivalent of White Russians instead of any kind of sector with even a modicum of revolutionary potential. the OP also thought it was worthwhile to try and explain to this forum that Israel is actually cool and good and just needs to be understood and like maybe those palestinians need to stop running in front of bombs. that's who you're dealing with.

tl;dr selling trot papers at klan rallies is a waste of time
#52
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#56
Online
Post rating: ~
i know elias quoted this part already but THis Is Some Win

The_Boourns_Identity posted:

Now when they try to use the "well the worker agreed to it" contract theory, I have a Trump card for that one: Rape.


The_Boourns_Identity posted:

Now when they try to use the "well the worker agreed to it" contract theory, I have a Trump card for that one: Rape.


#57
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#58
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#59
Post rating: +
I saw what your argument was, said the black man. And now, I'm going to rebutt you.
#60
chickeon
Post rating: +

tpaine posted:

wait, chickens don't piss...


we do, that's what the white stuff is in bird excrement. it all comes out at once

#61
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#62
Online
Post rating: ~

Keven posted:

I saw what your argument was, said the black man. And now, I'm going to rebutt you.


lmao

i cant tell if the op was framing it like that to be funny because otherwise the post seems pretty humorless, but you really can talk about the power dynamics involved in owner/laborer negotiations and be somewhat persuasive. otoh i figure shrieking RAPE at confused working class rubes is extremely effective, as we ll.

#63
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#64
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#65
Post rating: +
round me the trot parties are 2-3 times bigger than the ML ones, and much more visible (since they are entering into all the struggles - housing, racism etc to try and take them over to get recruits) so whenever a normal person decides to check out what this socialism fuss is all about they go to a meeting and find all these slightly weird people shouting constantly about revolution

ive only seen glimpses of how they work internally and they have some decent organisers; but they are sectarian in their relations with others (as in they will damage the wider struggle if it means their particular party will get some benefit) and i think lots of the criticism of academics here applies to them also

maybe thats a bit harsh... for example in the past 2 days ive met 2 swp members with very practical orientations and conceptions of the world.
still tho i suspect that the first steps towards 'socialism' that their groups offer can be a bit offputting
#66
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +++++
one thing to keep in mind is that people in mainstream political parties are nuts too. like i've been to the most boring liberal mixers where lifelong members start trying to convince me that 9/11 was done by bush. and more likely you'll find people with all sorts of personality disorders that are temporarily being expressed through politics, like very obviously craving fame or something and they tell you that they will be prime minister one day. and most of those mainstream people support insane racist wars too, let's remember. which is why one should look at the number of people killed under stalin and be astonished it was so low.
#67
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +
papa bear used to argue that the way ideology works is that countries like nazi germany didn't persist for a while because everyone was a huge nazi. it was because large numbers of professionals quietly believed they could humanize the system through small actions. and they might have underlying beliefs that were strongly pro-nazi but they generally had specific reservations about the system and might have even taken actions against the regime. and that's how they rationalized not revolting. like a professor might sign a nazi membership card and then make a joke about it later to a friend, considering it a stupid nuisance. they might think communism is evil and that the eastern front is horrifying at the prospect of russians taking over germany, but they might think hope that the 'emergency' can end and that representative government can be restored. which is why you should judge people primarily by their public actions and not their self-talk about their position in society.
#68
[account deactivated]
#69
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: +

camera_obscura posted:

Anything associated with the complacent faculty staff of ivory tower university staff is culturally objectionable to the American working class.



but when you go to school as an adult and start thinking you would rather work there than face the job market you will start to think of yourself as educated. a lot of working class people in the united states now enjoy the pleasures of applying for school, dealing with school staff & instructors and heaps of student debt, except their degrees are from half a strip mall in michigan city, indiana where the fire department has a drop-off box installed in case you need to abandon your baby. as always the truth is sad but it's great news for communism.

#70
bb bourgeoisie
Post rating: ~

chickeon posted:

the OP isn't talking about regular working class people he's talking about wasting time and effort using One Weird Tricks to try and convert the equivalent of White Russians instead of any kind of sector with even a modicum of revolutionary potential. the OP also thought it was worthwhile to try and explain to this forum that Israel is actually cool and good and just needs to be understood and like maybe those palestinians need to stop running in front of bombs. that's who you're dealing with.

tl;dr selling trot papers at klan rallies is a waste of time



I gave the person the benefit of the doubt. I assume that they live at a place where angry white conservatives are the norm, and wishes they could harness that anger for a revolutionary purpose / has nobody else to talk to so might as well try. Plus, the US is at a national moment where the white poor are redefining their role in national politics, so it isn't like this is out of nowhere.

#71
Post rating: +

camera_obscura posted:

I gave the person the benefit of the doubt. I assume that they live at a place where angry white conservatives are the norm, and wishes they could harness that anger for a revolutionary purpose / has nobody else to talk to so might as well try. Plus, the US is at a national moment where the white poor are redefining their role in national politics, so it isn't like this is out of nowhere.



*slams a big rubber stamp that says "read settlers" down on your post*

#72
Post rating: +
stego relaunch readsettlers.org or hand the domain over to someone who will.
#73
Post rating: ~

getfiscal posted:

papa bear used to argue that the way ideology works is that countries like nazi germany didn't persist for a while because everyone was a huge nazi. it was because large numbers of professionals quietly believed they could humanize the system through small actions. and they might have underlying beliefs that were strongly pro-nazi but they generally had specific reservations about the system and might have even taken actions against the regime. and that's how they rationalized not revolting. like a professor might sign a nazi membership card and then make a joke about it later to a friend, considering it a stupid nuisance. they might think communism is evil and that the eastern front is horrifying at the prospect of russians taking over germany, but they might think hope that the 'emergency' can end and that representative government can be restored. which is why you should judge people primarily by their public actions and not their self-talk about their position in society.

#74
bb bourgeoisie
Post rating: ~

blinkandwheeze posted:

camera_obscura posted:

I gave the person the benefit of the doubt. I assume that they live at a place where angry white conservatives are the norm, and wishes they could harness that anger for a revolutionary purpose / has nobody else to talk to so might as well try. Plus, the US is at a national moment where the white poor are redefining their role in national politics, so it isn't like this is out of nowhere.

*slams a big rubber stamp that says "read settlers" down on your post*



okay i will

#75
Post rating: ~

camera_obscura posted:

chickeon posted:

the OP isn't talking about regular working class people he's talking about wasting time and effort using One Weird Tricks to try and convert the equivalent of White Russians instead of any kind of sector with even a modicum of revolutionary potential. the OP also thought it was worthwhile to try and explain to this forum that Israel is actually cool and good and just needs to be understood and like maybe those palestinians need to stop running in front of bombs. that's who you're dealing with.

tl;dr selling trot papers at klan rallies is a waste of time

I gave the person the benefit of the doubt. I assume that they live at a place where angry white conservatives are the norm, and wishes they could harness that anger for a revolutionary purpose / has nobody else to talk to so might as well try. Plus, the US is at a national moment where the white poor are redefining their role in national politics, so it isn't like this is out of nowhere.



you are right, also getfiscal pwns

also, my comment about Israel was that anti-semitism or talk of jewish genocide must be absolutely renounced because it's nothing more than Triggering a bear that has you trapped and then you get mad when your kayak gets wrecked

#76
Post rating: +
Agreed it's useless for the palestinians to complain about the genocide they are bringing upon themselves through their vociferous anti-semitism (which is REAL and not a paranoid zionist fantasy mobilised to retroactively justify their project of colonial expansion)
#77
Post rating: ~

blinkandwheeze posted:

Agreed it's useless for the palestinians to complain about the genocide they are bringing upon themselves through their vociferous anti-semitism (which is REAL and not a paranoid zionist fantasy mobilised to retroactively justify their project of colonial expansion)



they are victims of a horrific apartheid regime, yes. However, can we agree that there is some value in "knowing thy enemy"?

Perhaps it might help to understand why the Israelis are so quick to get TRIGGERED, if we put it in the context of them being the direct descendants of the FLIPPING HOLOCAUST, and that certain kinds of language such as "exterminate all jews" is perhaps less than ideal when confronted with an occupying force who have recently sustained such a horrifying trauma.

I don't mean to blame the victim here when the Israeli gov. decides it's time to "mow the law", but when it comes to taking active steps towards peace, we should at least acknowledge that Israel uses those types of fighting words to justify the extreme prejudice with which they carry out their 'defensive' actions.

It's like, it really hurts me when I see videos of police bullying and harassing and beating and killing some young man of color, when the confrontation begins immediately with mutual distrust and mutual disrespect and a stupid pissing match power struggle ensues where professionalism goes out the window. I hate that, and I take a stand against the police in these situations. HOWEVER, as a young man of color myself, I can say I have been blessed with kind, cordial, professional, officers of the law and I've never had any police officer treat me with anything but utmost grace and professionalism. I also happen to be very careful and selective in how I express myself, so as not to trigger some young officer friendly trying to relive his glory days from Fallujah. I speak with respect and good faith, and I find it's returned to me.


It's idealistic to suggest that the Palestinians can all be a bunch of cool lil Fonzis or Gandhis but it's realistic to check ourselves on the left and not hand wave or dismiss when they hurt themselves by picking up blatantly Nazi-like anti-semitic rhetoric.

It's not useful, nor justified. IMHO



TL;DR: while it is technically possible to stop a fire by lighting more fires, generally speaking, I would advise against it.

Edited by The_Boourns_Identity ()

#78
[account deactivated]
#79
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: +

The_Boourns_Identity posted:

Perhaps it might help to understand why the Israelis are so quick to get TRIGGERED, if we put it in the context of them being the direct descendants of the FLIPPING HOLOCAUST,

Hahahaha

#80
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: +
Perhaps it might help to understand why the plantation owners are so quick to get TRIGGERED, if we put it in the context of them being the direct descendants of TAXATION WITHOUT FLIPPING REPRESENTATION,