Who cares if you personally don't like it? Yes, many of these people are not the greatest rappers, but I don't care because I'm far more interested in the message and the fact that other people are actually listening to this sort of music whatever anyone might think. Yes much of it is niche, but then Marxism itself is incredibly niche. Anything over a few thousand views should be seen as a victory, however small, and tracks that are reaching hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of people should be praised for what they are, good propaganda which has actually reached a lot of people – and if its actually Marxist-Leninist, all the better. Personal dislike of revolutionary music is both counterproductive and reactionary, putting individual taste – individualism - above message.
Its telling that the comments against people I posted are focused on a few individuals, obviously: Immortal Technique, Vinnie Paz, Brother Ali; to a lesser extent Dead Prez and The Coup. To think that I did not consider the effect which including these people in my nowhere near exhaustive list of political and revolutionary rappers is pretty funny. I actually thought about omitting them exactly because of this but thought it better to include them, both because of their popularity and because they tend to elicit super negative reactions, generally directed against person, style, ability or them just being shit, rather than about message.
Using the most amusing example I included: Vinnie Paz, a fat david icke repping homophobe who just so happens to have done a few (a few) tracks which have an excellent message. Does Vinnie Paz the person invalidate a message? If someone else was rapping one of these tracks, would that change anything? It shouldn't, because the message is still the same. I'm perfectly happy to discuss the problems many of these people have both in their message and as individuals if that is a source of contention for anyone and there is definitely an argument to build distance away from anyone with incorrect views, because the world we live in is so based on the individual that any sort of criticism is always going to come from that angle, regardless of message and is a weakness that someone somewhere is always going to exploit.
“Tastes” are just a product of environment and to exert that somehow your personal taste, or anyone else’s, or even the majority living under capitalism has some sort of superiority over actual message is laughable. Overall, its the message that matters, and any sort of music that has a revolutionary message is automatically superior to music that doesn't, once you discard personal aesthetics. This doesn't mean that non political music has no value, I like plenty of non-political music, but I recognise that it's diversion, an enjoyable distraction, or a nice thing to have on in the background, or just something to talk about with other people who enjoy those particular aesthetics. Consider writing as a similar example, again I like reading plenty of non-revolutionary material, but I recognise that material written to educate people with the truth, promote revolution, expand Marxism, anything related to expanding and raising consciousness is inherently more valuable than that which doesn't because it seeks a higher purpose, emancipation of the entire working class. Music that serves as revolutionary propaganda, education, or just telling the truth of real life on this fucked up earth is inherently better than that which doesn't once you discard individualism.
Lets actually look at what some of the messages being put forward are, detached from the individuals involved. I'm going to choose some of the most contentious examples I posted that people have referenced with the usual snobbish scoffs. If you disagree with these messages – please say so and why.
First – Immortal Technique, a conspiracy theorist, non-marxist and bit of a nut who also happens to be very popular and have made a host of good songs with good messages, his most viewed track on you-tube having >23m views.
As the primary track I chose “Rich Mans World (1%), a track with 1.4m views - an amusing mock track rapped with extreme vitriol while set to an abba track, written from the point of view of the bourgeoisie highlighting the class division between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, referencing slavery, imperialism, capitalism, foreclosure, inequality of justice, usury, US backed coups etc. All these are legitimate and crucial political topics which Marxists are trying to talk to people about the world over and heres a track with >1m views. To cap it all, this track is off the album “The Martyr”, released 2011, that Immortal Technique actually gave away for free. Good socialism imo.
Second – Vinnie Paz, a conspiracy theorist, homophobe and boxing commentator who usually raps about how much he loves guns or something. Vinnie Paz was relegated to the very bottom of the pile for obvious reasons but I felt it was important to include him due to popularity and a mixture of complete insanity with some (some!) good tracks. His most popular track is a literal david icke quoting conspiracy-fest about men on the moon, chemtrails and cloning obama with >12m views.
As the primary track I opted not to choose that one, instead opting for “You cant be neutral on a moving train” a track with cumulatively c800k views. This track takes it name from Howard Zinn's quote and is a generally materialist scatter-shot tour through the history of the united states. While it has some problems it discusses the evils of Colombus' genocide, the catholic church in the USA, slavery, the rape of Africa and the plantation system, the origin and perpetuation of racism in the USA, the rape of female slaves, the Mexican war w/ references to Thoreau, the rise of workers militancy and socialism, repression, etc. I see no obvious major issues with the content of this entire track. Vinnie Paz even states at the end “This is a story about the lies that your teacher told you... ...I'm trying to share the shit that I learnt” - Obviously a sincere effort by a popular rap guy to actually spread a more accurate understanding of the history of the united states, something that should be lauded regardless of what medium they use to do so.
Third – Brother Ali, a fat bearded albino Muslim convert, non-marxist with a good message who's most popular track has c3.6m views on youtube.
As the primary track I chose “Mourning in America”, a track with >1.3m views. A track highlighting the terrorism of the rich, the branding of the poor as “terrorists”, alienation, police oppression, the prison system, oppression through the other institutes of the state, COINTELPRO assassinations etc. Again not only do I see nothing wrong with this message, it is entirely correct - complete with clips from Malcolm X.
Overall I see nothing wrong and everything that is very right about the message of these three tracks by three people I selected. Again you may disagree with these individuals as individuals, but if you disagree with the actual message idk, it seems very odd for a communist to state, not that they dislike this sort of music as a personal preference, but that they actively dislike this sort of music because the think its stupid, ridiculous or lame, when the message very closely aligns with the consciousness we are actually trying to build in people.
I find it interesting to compare view counts between equivalent musical topic in English and in other languages. As an example Marcel Cartier who I posted, a Marxist-Leninist rapper from the USA, if you're interested here he is talking to the CPGB-ML briefly, a couple of years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fjeHgvWDlw,
Now his music is incredibly niche, with most videos <10,000 views, a few with more, but of course it's going to be so, ML is so niche in the 1st world (although not in the global south) that if there were even hundreds of thousands of people listening to this I would be very pleased. Now compare that to the Pablo Hasél track linked by Ufuk_Surekli, a track literally called Marxism-Leninismo, in Spanish, with almost 100k views. Yes its still not many, but that’s still a lot of people watching a rap video about marxism-leninism in Spanish, comparatively to the best examples I can find in English. Another example would be Ana Tijoux, rapping in Spanish, who is incredibly popular, making tracks on overthrowing the Chile government, the evils of capitalism, organising, patriarchy etc, many with milti-million views, many others with c500k views.
To say that all these people are fronting liberals making music for fronting liberals is both idiotic and incredibly snobbish. It strikes me as exactly the same kind of put-down that’s rolled out against marxists themselves in the first world, as being infantile “children” rebelling against their parents or something, looking at the individual as being far more important than the message they promote.
Many (although obviously not all) of these people have been extensively involved in political organising and use rap as an additional propaganda tool to further their work with local communities, some even actually working towards socialism with all the problems which come with that. Lets look at some examples which directly refute the idea that these people are all mouth and no action – pretending basically:
First, Lowkey, a rapper from the UK who was arrested, had his home raided, books, writings anything political stolen by the police for making music that spoke out against oppression. See here: http://www.mideastdynasty.com/?p=8508
So what did he say to merit this attention from the state violence apparatus? Lowkey's “Terrorist?”, a track about western terrorism, and branding of opponents to imperialism as terrorist is his most popular track, with >4.5m views. Lowkey's Obama Nation pt 2 has almost 2m views. This is a track in which a person directly calls for Obama, Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice and Michelle Obama to burn in hell. A sentiment that 21,774 people enjoyed enough to up-vote. Its no surprise that the British pigs raided Lowkey's home, arrested him and confiscated his books, lyrics and writings – and yet this demonstrates that here was someone who spoke out against the fascist governemnts of the UK and USA through the medium of rapping, to such an extent that he came to the attention of the armed forces of oppression who felt the need to exert violence to intimidate and silence such an individual.
Lets take another example: Ant Loc of Savage Fam, to say that he, an indiginous native American rapping about colonisation of native lands, the great American genocide and native resistance who couples his music with active work with native peoples to bring class consciousness and teach native peoples about their heritage, is appealing to “white liberals” is ridiculous and incredibly dismissive of all the work that Ant Loc and the rest of Savage Fam do in defence of indigenous peoples. Yes, this is niche, their tracks don't have many views, but what does that even mean? Just that fewer people have heard Ant Loc incredibly violent, anti imperialist, anti american, anti cop rhetoric.
A third example: Akala, a rapper, journalist and excellent public speaker spending much time talking on knowledge and education, racism, pan-africanism etc, including going into some of the most reactionary arenas and not just holding his own but owning the shit out of reactionaries and fascists. Here he is trying to talk some sense into the coddled children of the bourgeoisie at the Oxford university union, their “debating” society: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUtAxUQjwB4
And to cap it all, so what if white college kids and liberals are listening to this sort of stuff? I say that’s a good thing, not something to be used as an elitist dismissal. If some liberal is listening to a song about idk, hanging c.e.o.s, the evils of colonisation and marxism-leninism then holy shit, that’s a great thing, even if they aren’t really engaging fully with the lyrics, even if they are “posing”, that doesn't really matter, because the message they're listening to is inherently revolutionary and that contradiction has to be resolved somehow, whether that is via a slide into radicalisation or a slide away from that sort of music. If even one person is radicalised by “cheesy” revolutionary rap and becomes a communist that’s a good thing, if even one liberal questions their liberal assumptions because a Native American is rapping about burning down the capital and how pigs are raping native children then that’s a good thing. Unequivocally.
Hth. and yes I am utterly humourless.
animedad posted:the so-called tastemakers of the rap thread like Future and Tommy Wright and Dj Screw because they're so keeeewl so I wouldn't worry about it too much tears
you've made a powerful enemy
tears posted:I really don’t care about what type of music people like, but I find it incredibly irritating, as probably judged from my off the cuff irritable posts when people put musical snobbishness and subjective personal individualist taste above message and content.
Who cares if you personally don't like it? Yes, many of these people are not the greatest rappers, but I don't care because I'm far more interested in the message and the fact that other people are actually listening to this sort of music whatever anyone might think. Yes much of it is niche, but then Marxism itself is incredibly niche. Anything over a few thousand views should be seen as a victory, however small, and tracks that are reaching hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of people should be praised for what they are, good propaganda which has actually reached a lot of people – and if its actually Marxist-Leninist, all the better. Personal dislike of revolutionary music is both counterproductive and reactionary, putting individual taste – individualism - above message.
Its telling that the comments against people I posted are focused on a few individuals, obviously: Immortal Technique, Vinnie Paz, Brother Ali; to a lesser extent Dead Prez and The Coup. To think that I did not consider the effect which including these people in my nowhere near exhaustive list of political and revolutionary rappers is pretty funny. I actually thought about omitting them exactly because of this but thought it better to include them, both because of their popularity and because they tend to elicit super negative reactions, generally directed against person, style, ability or them just being shit, rather than about message.
Using the most amusing example I included: Vinnie Paz, a fat david icke repping homophobe who just so happens to have done a few (a few) tracks which have an excellent message. Does Vinnie Paz the person invalidate a message? If someone else was rapping one of these tracks, would that change anything? It shouldn't, because the message is still the same. I'm perfectly happy to discuss the problems many of these people have both in their message and as individuals if that is a source of contention for anyone and there is definitely an argument to build distance away from anyone with incorrect views, because the world we live in is so based on the individual that any sort of criticism is always going to come from that angle, regardless of message and is a weakness that someone somewhere is always going to exploit.
“Tastes” are just a product of environment and to exert that somehow your personal taste, or anyone else’s, or even the majority living under capitalism has some sort of superiority over actual message is laughable. Overall, its the message that matters, and any sort of music that has a revolutionary message is automatically superior to music that doesn't, once you discard personal aesthetics. This doesn't mean that non political music has no value, I like plenty of non-political music, but I recognise that it's diversion, an enjoyable distraction, or a nice thing to have on in the background, or just something to talk about with other people who enjoy those particular aesthetics. Consider writing as a similar example, again I like reading plenty of non-revolutionary material, but I recognise that material written to educate people with the truth, promote revolution, expand Marxism, anything related to expanding and raising consciousness is inherently more valuable than that which doesn't because it seeks a higher purpose, emancipation of the entire working class. Music that serves as revolutionary propaganda, education, or just telling the truth of real life on this fucked up earth is inherently better than that which doesn't once you discard individualism.
Lets actually look at what some of the messages being put forward are, detached from the individuals involved. I'm going to choose some of the most contentious examples I posted that people have referenced with the usual snobbish scoffs. If you disagree with these messages – please say so and why.
First – Immortal Technique, a conspiracy theorist, non-marxist and bit of a nut who also happens to be very popular and have made a host of good songs with good messages, his most viewed track on you-tube having >23m views.
As the primary track I chose “Rich Mans World (1%), a track with 1.4m views - an amusing mock track rapped with extreme vitriol while set to an abba track, written from the point of view of the bourgeoisie highlighting the class division between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, referencing slavery, imperialism, capitalism, foreclosure, inequality of justice, usury, US backed coups etc. All these are legitimate and crucial political topics which Marxists are trying to talk to people about the world over and heres a track with >1m views. To cap it all, this track is off the album “The Martyr”, released 2011, that Immortal Technique actually gave away for free. Good socialism imo.
Second – Vinnie Paz, a conspiracy theorist, homophobe and boxing commentator who usually raps about how much he loves guns or something. Vinnie Paz was relegated to the very bottom of the pile for obvious reasons but I felt it was important to include him due to popularity and a mixture of complete insanity with some (some!) good tracks. His most popular track is a literal david icke quoting conspiracy-fest about men on the moon, chemtrails and cloning obama with >12m views.
As the primary track I opted not to choose that one, instead opting for “You cant be neutral on a moving train” a track with cumulatively c800k views. This track takes it name from Howard Zinn's quote and is a generally materialist scatter-shot tour through the history of the united states. While it has some problems it discusses the evils of Colombus' genocide, the catholic church in the USA, slavery, the rape of Africa and the plantation system, the origin and perpetuation of racism in the USA, the rape of female slaves, the Mexican war w/ references to Thoreau, the rise of workers militancy and socialism, repression, etc. I see no obvious major issues with the content of this entire track. Vinnie Paz even states at the end “This is a story about the lies that your teacher told you... ...I'm trying to share the shit that I learnt” - Obviously a sincere effort by a popular rap guy to actually spread a more accurate understanding of the history of the united states, something that should be lauded regardless of what medium they use to do so.
Third – Brother Ali, a fat bearded albino Muslim convert, non-marxist with a good message who's most popular track has c3.6m views on youtube.
As the primary track I chose “Mourning in America”, a track with >1.3m views. A track highlighting the terrorism of the rich, the branding of the poor as “terrorists”, alienation, police oppression, the prison system, oppression through the other institutes of the state, COINTELPRO assassinations etc. Again not only do I see nothing wrong with this message, it is entirely correct - complete with clips from Malcolm X.
Overall I see nothing wrong and everything that is very right about the message of these three tracks by three people I selected. Again you may disagree with these individuals as individuals, but if you disagree with the actual message idk, it seems very odd for a communist to state, not that they dislike this sort of music as a personal preference, but that they actively dislike this sort of music because the think its stupid, ridiculous or lame, when the message very closely aligns with the consciousness we are actually trying to build in people.
I find it interesting to compare view counts between equivalent musical topic in English and in other languages. As an example Marcel Cartier who I posted, a Marxist-Leninist rapper from the USA, if you're interested here he is talking to the CPGB-ML briefly, a couple of years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fjeHgvWDlw,
Now his music is incredibly niche, with most videos <10,000 views, a few with more, but of course it's going to be so, ML is so niche in the 1st world (although not in the global south) that if there were even hundreds of thousands of people listening to this I would be very pleased. Now compare that to the Pablo Hasél track linked by Ufuk_Surekli, a track literally called Marxism-Leninismo, in Spanish, with almost 100k views. Yes its still not many, but that’s still a lot of people watching a rap video about marxism-leninism in Spanish, comparatively to the best examples I can find in English. Another example would be Ana Tijoux, rapping in Spanish, who is incredibly popular, making tracks on overthrowing the Chile government, the evils of capitalism, organising, patriarchy etc, many with milti-million views, many others with c500k views.
To say that all these people are fronting liberals making music for fronting liberals is both idiotic and incredibly snobbish. It strikes me as exactly the same kind of put-down that’s rolled out against marxists themselves in the first world, as being infantile “children” rebelling against their parents or something, looking at the individual as being far more important than the message they promote.
Many (although obviously not all) of these people have been extensively involved in political organising and use rap as an additional propaganda tool to further their work with local communities, some even actually working towards socialism with all the problems which come with that. Lets look at some examples which directly refute the idea that these people are all mouth and no action – pretending basically:
First, Lowkey, a rapper from the UK who was arrested, had his home raided, books, writings anything political stolen by the police for making music that spoke out against oppression. See here: http://www.mideastdynasty.com/?p=8508
So what did he say to merit this attention from the state violence apparatus? Lowkey's “Terrorist?”, a track about western terrorism, and branding of opponents to imperialism as terrorist is his most popular track, with >4.5m views. Lowkey's Obama Nation pt 2 has almost 2m views. This is a track in which a person directly calls for Obama, Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice and Michelle Obama to burn in hell. A sentiment that 21,774 people enjoyed enough to up-vote. Its no surprise that the British pigs raided Lowkey's home, arrested him and confiscated his books, lyrics and writings – and yet this demonstrates that here was someone who spoke out against the fascist governemnts of the UK and USA through the medium of rapping, to such an extent that he came to the attention of the armed forces of oppression who felt the need to exert violence to intimidate and silence such an individual.
Lets take another example: Ant Loc of Savage Fam, to say that he, an indiginous native American rapping about colonisation of native lands, the great American genocide and native resistance who couples his music with active work with native peoples to bring class consciousness and teach native peoples about their heritage, is appealing to “white liberals” is ridiculous and incredibly dismissive of all the work that Ant Loc and the rest of Savage Fam do in defence of indigenous peoples. Yes, this is niche, their tracks don't have many views, but what does that even mean? Just that fewer people have heard Ant Loc incredibly violent, anti imperialist, anti american, anti cop rhetoric.
A third example: Akala, a rapper, journalist and excellent public speaker spending much time talking on knowledge and education, racism, pan-africanism etc, including going into some of the most reactionary arenas and not just holding his own but owning the shit out of reactionaries and fascists. Here he is trying to talk some sense into the coddled children of the bourgeoisie at the Oxford university union, their “debating” society: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUtAxUQjwB4
And to cap it all, so what if white college kids and liberals are listening to this sort of stuff? I say that’s a good thing, not something to be used as an elitist dismissal. If some liberal is listening to a song about idk, hanging c.e.o.s, the evils of colonisation and marxism-leninism then holy shit, that’s a great thing, even if they aren’t really engaging fully with the lyrics, even if they are “posing”, that doesn't really matter, because the message they're listening to is inherently revolutionary and that contradiction has to be resolved somehow, whether that is via a slide into radicalisation or a slide away from that sort of music. If even one person is radicalised by “cheesy” revolutionary rap and becomes a communist that’s a good thing, if even one liberal questions their liberal assumptions because a Native American is rapping about burning down the capital and how pigs are raping native children then that’s a good thing. Unequivocally.
Hth. and yes I am utterly humourless.
Did not read a word of this
tears posted:I really don’t care about what type of music people like, but I find it incredibly irritating, as probably judged from my off the cuff irritable posts when people put musical snobbishness and subjective personal individualist taste above message and content.
Who cares if you personally don't like it? Yes, many of these people are not the greatest rappers, but I don't care because I'm far more interested in the message and the fact that other people are actually listening to this sort of music whatever anyone might think. Yes much of it is niche, but then Marxism itself is incredibly niche. Anything over a few thousand views should be seen as a victory, however small, and tracks that are reaching hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of people should be praised for what they are, good propaganda which has actually reached a lot of people – and if its actually Marxist-Leninist, all the better. Personal dislike of revolutionary music is both counterproductive and reactionary, putting individual taste – individualism - above message.
Its telling that the comments against people I posted are focused on a few individuals, obviously: Immortal Technique, Vinnie Paz, Brother Ali; to a lesser extent Dead Prez and The Coup. To think that I did not consider the effect which including these people in my nowhere near exhaustive list of political and revolutionary rappers is pretty funny. I actually thought about omitting them exactly because of this but thought it better to include them, both because of their popularity and because they tend to elicit super negative reactions, generally directed against person, style, ability or them just being shit, rather than about message.
Using the most amusing example I included: Vinnie Paz, a fat david icke repping homophobe who just so happens to have done a few (a few) tracks which have an excellent message. Does Vinnie Paz the person invalidate a message? If someone else was rapping one of these tracks, would that change anything? It shouldn't, because the message is still the same. I'm perfectly happy to discuss the problems many of these people have both in their message and as individuals if that is a source of contention for anyone and there is definitely an argument to build distance away from anyone with incorrect views, because the world we live in is so based on the individual that any sort of criticism is always going to come from that angle, regardless of message and is a weakness that someone somewhere is always going to exploit.
“Tastes” are just a product of environment and to exert that somehow your personal taste, or anyone else’s, or even the majority living under capitalism has some sort of superiority over actual message is laughable. Overall, its the message that matters, and any sort of music that has a revolutionary message is automatically superior to music that doesn't, once you discard personal aesthetics. This doesn't mean that non political music has no value, I like plenty of non-political music, but I recognise that it's diversion, an enjoyable distraction, or a nice thing to have on in the background, or just something to talk about with other people who enjoy those particular aesthetics. Consider writing as a similar example, again I like reading plenty of non-revolutionary material, but I recognise that material written to educate people with the truth, promote revolution, expand Marxism, anything related to expanding and raising consciousness is inherently more valuable than that which doesn't because it seeks a higher purpose, emancipation of the entire working class. Music that serves as revolutionary propaganda, education, or just telling the truth of real life on this fucked up earth is inherently better than that which doesn't once you discard individualism.
Lets actually look at what some of the messages being put forward are, detached from the individuals involved. I'm going to choose some of the most contentious examples I posted that people have referenced with the usual snobbish scoffs. If you disagree with these messages – please say so and why.
First – Immortal Technique, a conspiracy theorist, non-marxist and bit of a nut who also happens to be very popular and have made a host of good songs with good messages, his most viewed track on you-tube having >23m views.
As the primary track I chose “Rich Mans World (1%), a track with 1.4m views - an amusing mock track rapped with extreme vitriol while set to an abba track, written from the point of view of the bourgeoisie highlighting the class division between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, referencing slavery, imperialism, capitalism, foreclosure, inequality of justice, usury, US backed coups etc. All these are legitimate and crucial political topics which Marxists are trying to talk to people about the world over and heres a track with >1m views. To cap it all, this track is off the album “The Martyr”, released 2011, that Immortal Technique actually gave away for free. Good socialism imo.
Second – Vinnie Paz, a conspiracy theorist, homophobe and boxing commentator who usually raps about how much he loves guns or something. Vinnie Paz was relegated to the very bottom of the pile for obvious reasons but I felt it was important to include him due to popularity and a mixture of complete insanity with some (some!) good tracks. His most popular track is a literal david icke quoting conspiracy-fest about men on the moon, chemtrails and cloning obama with >12m views.
As the primary track I opted not to choose that one, instead opting for “You cant be neutral on a moving train” a track with cumulatively c800k views. This track takes it name from Howard Zinn's quote and is a generally materialist scatter-shot tour through the history of the united states. While it has some problems it discusses the evils of Colombus' genocide, the catholic church in the USA, slavery, the rape of Africa and the plantation system, the origin and perpetuation of racism in the USA, the rape of female slaves, the Mexican war w/ references to Thoreau, the rise of workers militancy and socialism, repression, etc. I see no obvious major issues with the content of this entire track. Vinnie Paz even states at the end “This is a story about the lies that your teacher told you... ...I'm trying to share the shit that I learnt” - Obviously a sincere effort by a popular rap guy to actually spread a more accurate understanding of the history of the united states, something that should be lauded regardless of what medium they use to do so.
Third – Brother Ali, a fat bearded albino Muslim convert, non-marxist with a good message who's most popular track has c3.6m views on youtube.
As the primary track I chose “Mourning in America”, a track with >1.3m views. A track highlighting the terrorism of the rich, the branding of the poor as “terrorists”, alienation, police oppression, the prison system, oppression through the other institutes of the state, COINTELPRO assassinations etc. Again not only do I see nothing wrong with this message, it is entirely correct - complete with clips from Malcolm X.
Overall I see nothing wrong and everything that is very right about the message of these three tracks by three people I selected. Again you may disagree with these individuals as individuals, but if you disagree with the actual message idk, it seems very odd for a communist to state, not that they dislike this sort of music as a personal preference, but that they actively dislike this sort of music because the think its stupid, ridiculous or lame, when the message very closely aligns with the consciousness we are actually trying to build in people.
I find it interesting to compare view counts between equivalent musical topic in English and in other languages. As an example Marcel Cartier who I posted, a Marxist-Leninist rapper from the USA, if you're interested here he is talking to the CPGB-ML briefly, a couple of years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fjeHgvWDlw,
Now his music is incredibly niche, with most videos <10,000 views, a few with more, but of course it's going to be so, ML is so niche in the 1st world (although not in the global south) that if there were even hundreds of thousands of people listening to this I would be very pleased. Now compare that to the Pablo Hasél track linked by Ufuk_Surekli, a track literally called Marxism-Leninismo, in Spanish, with almost 100k views. Yes its still not many, but that’s still a lot of people watching a rap video about marxism-leninism in Spanish, comparatively to the best examples I can find in English. Another example would be Ana Tijoux, rapping in Spanish, who is incredibly popular, making tracks on overthrowing the Chile government, the evils of capitalism, organising, patriarchy etc, many with milti-million views, many others with c500k views.
To say that all these people are fronting liberals making music for fronting liberals is both idiotic and incredibly snobbish. It strikes me as exactly the same kind of put-down that’s rolled out against marxists themselves in the first world, as being infantile “children” rebelling against their parents or something, looking at the individual as being far more important than the message they promote.
Many (although obviously not all) of these people have been extensively involved in political organising and use rap as an additional propaganda tool to further their work with local communities, some even actually working towards socialism with all the problems which come with that. Lets look at some examples which directly refute the idea that these people are all mouth and no action – pretending basically:
First, Lowkey, a rapper from the UK who was arrested, had his home raided, books, writings anything political stolen by the police for making music that spoke out against oppression. See here: http://www.mideastdynasty.com/?p=8508
So what did he say to merit this attention from the state violence apparatus? Lowkey's “Terrorist?”, a track about western terrorism, and branding of opponents to imperialism as terrorist is his most popular track, with >4.5m views. Lowkey's Obama Nation pt 2 has almost 2m views. This is a track in which a person directly calls for Obama, Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice and Michelle Obama to burn in hell. A sentiment that 21,774 people enjoyed enough to up-vote. Its no surprise that the British pigs raided Lowkey's home, arrested him and confiscated his books, lyrics and writings – and yet this demonstrates that here was someone who spoke out against the fascist governemnts of the UK and USA through the medium of rapping, to such an extent that he came to the attention of the armed forces of oppression who felt the need to exert violence to intimidate and silence such an individual.
Lets take another example: Ant Loc of Savage Fam, to say that he, an indiginous native American rapping about colonisation of native lands, the great American genocide and native resistance who couples his music with active work with native peoples to bring class consciousness and teach native peoples about their heritage, is appealing to “white liberals” is ridiculous and incredibly dismissive of all the work that Ant Loc and the rest of Savage Fam do in defence of indigenous peoples. Yes, this is niche, their tracks don't have many views, but what does that even mean? Just that fewer people have heard Ant Loc incredibly violent, anti imperialist, anti american, anti cop rhetoric.
A third example: Akala, a rapper, journalist and excellent public speaker spending much time talking on knowledge and education, racism, pan-africanism etc, including going into some of the most reactionary arenas and not just holding his own but owning the shit out of reactionaries and fascists. Here he is trying to talk some sense into the coddled children of the bourgeoisie at the Oxford university union, their “debating” society: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUtAxUQjwB4
And to cap it all, so what if white college kids and liberals are listening to this sort of stuff? I say that’s a good thing, not something to be used as an elitist dismissal. If some liberal is listening to a song about idk, hanging c.e.o.s, the evils of colonisation and marxism-leninism then holy shit, that’s a great thing, even if they aren’t really engaging fully with the lyrics, even if they are “posing”, that doesn't really matter, because the message they're listening to is inherently revolutionary and that contradiction has to be resolved somehow, whether that is via a slide into radicalisation or a slide away from that sort of music. If even one person is radicalised by “cheesy” revolutionary rap and becomes a communist that’s a good thing, if even one liberal questions their liberal assumptions because a Native American is rapping about burning down the capital and how pigs are raping native children then that’s a good thing. Unequivocally.
Hth. and yes I am utterly humourless.
placeholder for my point-by-point rebuttal
also, i have a theory that (for the most part) a persons music taste freezes at a certain point in their early to mid twenties, and whatever theyre into then is likely going to last them the rest of their lives, so it also makes sense that tponimus doesnt like a genre that didnt really exist until he was in his thirties
tpaine posted:getfiscal i love rap now. in fact can i call you g-fizzy
I'm glad you enjoy the rap hip-hop now. No, you may not call me "g-fizzy".
TG posted:also, i have a theory that (for the most part) a persons music taste freezes at a certain point in their early to mid twenties, and whatever theyre into then is likely going to last them the rest of their lives
for me that year was 2005. i think simon reynolds was right with his "retromania" thesis that there has been basically zero innovation in music since the early 2000s. the upside is that all the stuff coming out now still caters to my tastes because it's just minor variations on and recombinations of stuff i listened to back then
just something 2 think about before elevating an artist's expressed political opinion as a primary arbiter of value or whatever
tpaine posted:but i want to show that i'm cool and with it.
i understand the pressures of forums life but drugs aren't the answer.
Urbandale posted:I think that's an awfully contrarian opinion to express, especially when tears explicitly stated they liked rap for other reasons as well. I posted cheif keef. I think the forums have a history with Mishima. You can have multiple criteria for liking media, I don't see what the problem is
"cultural works are not inherently more valuable because of their intended political message" is a contrarian opinion?
blinkandwheeze posted:"cultural works are not inherently more valuable because of their intended political message" is a contrarian opinion?
this might be your most anti-maoist position.... and i like it.
getfiscal posted:blinkandwheeze posted:"cultural works are not inherently more valuable because of their intended political message" is a contrarian opinion?
this might be your most anti-maoist position.... and i like it.
Actually,
Works of art which lack artistic quality have no force, however progressive they are politically. Therefore, we oppose both the tendency to produce works of art with a wrong political viewpoint and the tendency towards the "poster and slogan style" which is correct in political viewpoint but lacking in artistic power. On questions of literature and art we must carry on a struggle on two fronts.
solzhesnitchin posted:TG posted:also, i have a theory that (for the most part) a persons music taste freezes at a certain point in their early to mid twenties, and whatever theyre into then is likely going to last them the rest of their lives
for me that year was 2005. i think simon reynolds was right with his "retromania" thesis that there has been basically zero innovation in music since the early 2000s. the upside is that all the stuff coming out now still caters to my tastes because it's just minor variations on and recombinations of stuff i listened to back then
theres been plenty of innovation in music since the early 2000s, it's just all been really bad
blinkandwheeze posted:Urbandale posted:I think that's an awfully contrarian opinion to express, especially when tears explicitly stated they liked rap for other reasons as well. I posted cheif keef. I think the forums have a history with Mishima. You can have multiple criteria for liking media, I don't see what the problem is
"cultural works are not inherently more valuable because of their intended political message" is a contrarian opinion?
you were implying the intended political message of a work has little or no bearing on its value, which is not really the same thing
blinkandwheeze posted:felipe luciano, who was cofounder of the new york branch of the young lords party, was an original member of the last poets who were probably the first rap group. so yes Mao probably did invent the entirety of rap music.
See.... I didn't know any of that... But guess what helped me intuit it... that's right.... the revolutionary science.
