#81
Pretty sure the only thing that's ever gonna be cost competitive in small batches are herbs and spices. Everything else will take a while to pay back the capital investment, unless you use found objects for materials and can get decent free soil.

Unless you own a home with a yard you probably lack the space to benefit from economy of scale and save meaningful money.

It doesn't mean you shouldn't grow stuff anyway but a few potted plants won't slash your food bill.
#82
Yeah, for staple foods it takes a lot of work and space to establish the infrastructure needed for the cost/labour of gardening to come even close to breaking even, and it probably never would.

Herb planters are a great idea that don't take nearly as much effort and can easily supply for most of your herb needs, especially if you have a good growing climate, with the added benefit that they will be of significantly better quality than overpriced grocery store fare.
#83
it depends...by the time you spend the money on garden tools, compost, seeds etc and then factor in how much your time's worth you really won''t saving much money on food your first season. that said if you do things well your produce will be significantly better than supermarket equivalents, so if you only buy from farmers markets or buy premium produce you may save a non-negligible amount if nothing goes wrong.

after a year or two of getting your soil fertility built up you'll see a lot better yields, and if you're dedicated about canning/preserving you really can see some savings. i know some folks who are semi-homesteader types who grow vegetables on a 100x100 plot and it provides 60-70 percent of the food they eat. but its a shitload of work

if you were thinking about growing stuff for sale then its a whole nother game entirely and its somethign i know nothing about. try weed?
#84
Grow and sell "sanctified" sage to wiccans at a ludicrous markup
#85
i wouldn't go as far as to say it's not worth growing staple foods... two years ago I planted 15 30ft rows of dent corn to grind into meal and another 10 rows of black beans (i was taking care of another friend's garden while they were traveling so i just planted the whole fucker in Corn and beans) and wound up getting a little more than a half bushel of shelled corn, which ground out into about 30lbs of meal. i made half of it into masa harina and the rest into plain cornmeal and i'm still working through it. the beans were a little less prolific, but i wound up getting about 20lbs of dry beans. if space isn't an issue it can be done.

it was a stupid amount of work though
#86
I guess I have a rougher perspective on it because the growing season up here is terrible, the only staple crops you could do lots of at home root vegetables and maybe lentils if you have a huge yard and don't mind onerous harvesting. Having tons of home grown potatoes and beets is awesome though. And yeah the main thing is that its gonna take you a couple years to get going, after that its not so bad.

You just can't grow corn here, tried so many times to make it work ;_;

One good thing to do when starting a garden is to establish some nice low maintenance perennials that will take care of themselves with zero effort, like raspberries and rhubarb. A hedge of raspberries isn't very attractive but its delicious and effective use of space.
#87

xipe posted:

any compost tips?
how do you make your compost, on a household or community level?

where do you get the stuff for it and what do you do with it?



if you want it fast, just do a search for "bulk compost" in your area, there are places all over the country that will sell it by the cubic yard. don't buy bagged compost from the garden center, it's wayyy too expensive, most of it is pretty subpar, and oftentimes it's full of poorly-composted manure, which can:
1)fill your garden with undigested weed seeds which will sprout and take over, or
2)be full of fungus or other diseases that will kill your plants

bulk stuff is generally fresh and bioactive and much, much cheaper. one yard of compost is enough to topdress a 30x30 plot nicely.

if you want to make your own compost i really can't recommend vermicomposting enough. worm bins like this take a ton of the potentially gross guesswork out of it, your waste gets digested quickly, and you're left with really amazing, thick, dark soil amendment. plus as tsinava said you get the pleasure of having an army of squirming minions in your power

e: plus you can do it indoors and it doesn't take up much space

#88

shriekingviolet posted:

I guess I have a rougher perspective on it because the growing season up here is terrible, the only staple crops you could do lots of at home root vegetables and maybe lentils if you have a huge yard and don't mind onerous harvesting. Having tons of home grown potatoes and beets is awesome though. And yeah the main thing is that its gonna take you a couple years to get going, after that its not so bad.

You just can't grow corn here, tried so many times to make it work ;_;

One good thing to do when starting a garden is to establish some nice low maintenance perennials that will take care of themselves with zero effort, like raspberries and rhubarb. A hedge of raspberries isn't very attractive but its delicious and effective use of space.



y the hate on root veg? i wish i could grow carrots all summer... and the rutabagas???

yeah berries and rhubarb are great. jerusalem artichokes are another great set-it-and-forget-it perrenial crop. i will say permaculture nerds fuckin love rhubarb because it's zero maintenance but i really just don't like the way it tastes. sure it's good with a ton of strawberries and sugar, because then it just tastes like strawberries.

#89
I love root vegetables but sometimes you wish you could do something More... The extremely long days in the northern growing cycle do some interesting things to gardening that I'm still learning about and don't fully understand. Some things grow really fast and huge with the extra sun despite the shorter amount of days available, some others really need those days and will never make it. You can grow some monster zucchini up here, its amazing.

Of course, you also need to be ready for a random frost or snowfall in the middle of July every couple years...
#90

xipe posted:

any compost tips?
how do you make your compost, on a household or community level?

where do you get the stuff for it and what do you do with it?


This is what I remember from childhood -

dx is right that you can and should buy compost in bulk, you can often do this with a local landfill.

In terms of composting your own waste in a pile, you need to mix lots of non-food waste in, including grass clippings, hay, and herbivore shit, and even just some soil now and then. Dried peat is good for soil if you are trying to mix human waste in, but unless you have a very very healthy diet - don't. Generally you should never use carnivore shit for compost. You can also put in sawdust, barkdust and fireplace ash but intermix these things to hasten their absorption into the compost. Another thing to add to the compost pile is more compost. One of the main jobs of the compost pile is to absorb food trash, and it just needs to reach a critical mass of biodegradable material to do this efficiently.

If you're composting in a city, consider talking to bakeries and kitchens for eggshells which are excellent compost material. Bones especially fish bones are also terrific for your soil. If you keep a bug jug - a fly and bee trap made of a milk jug - the disgusting, stinky jug of rotting insect corpses can be dumped into the pile when it fills.

Yes, high worm content is important for your compost, you should also be conscious of the interior temperature of the pile. A good compost pile disturbed with a shovel on a cool night will give off steam, if the bulk is sufficient and the contents are nutritive enough to support massive bacterial activity. This is one reason to add lots of already-prepared compost to your compost pile.

Make sure to start a new compost pile a few weeks or a month before you plan to use up the old one, to let the old one marinate.

#91
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#92
That would qualify as high worm content for sure
#93

swampman posted:

You can also put in sawdust, barkdust and fireplace ash but intermix these things to hasten their absorption into the compost.


seriously make sure you mix these in, composting sawdust and wood chips in a deep homogeneous pile can get hot enough to smoke, smoulder and even combust. i've seen it happen.

#94
everything swampman said, but actually pure worm composting is cool-temperature. the bacteria that break the waste down live in the worms' guts, and high temps (anything over 85F) will kill worms. worm composting is cool!

#95

shriekingviolet posted:

Of course, you also need to be ready for a random frost or snowfall in the middle of July every couple years...

we keep trying to fix this

#96
If you have a few acres of vegetation to work with, put serious thought into keeping a goat or even a llama. These animals can be tethered around any vegetation and they'll turn it into nutritious, conveniently mounded shit. You can loan the animal out to other people for this purpose and take the inevitable shit with you. Evenutally you will collect enough shit to rule the world. All you have to do, to reap tjhese goods, is devote your waking life tothe veterinary care of a smelly insubordinate beast that hates your very flesh
#97
my uncle's knee got dislocated when the family goat butted him. it also ate the vinyl roof off their station wagon. goats rule.
#98
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#99
mods please delete shriekingviolet's post above for the full weight of the tpants one-liner to have effect
#100
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#101
Alas, post deletion is not a mod power
#102
growing lots of food with annual plants is a thing that can really only be done with soil that has been worked on for a while. it's also pretty labor intensive.

what other people are saying here is pretty much true.

the best premium markets is selling stuff you can make from herb bushes from fruit trees. so stuff like elderberry jam, or rosemary oil.

"artisanal" soap can be made by just melting glycerin soap (you don't have to use animal fat and lye. EW) with herbs in a crockpot and letting it cook for a while then pouring it back in a muffin pan or whatever molds that wont melt. that's a really popular product and it also doesn't go bad, so you can just save it for later if people wont buy.

if you're new to this, I would definitely look into stuff you can make that doesn't go bad or has a long shelf life.
#103
thanks deng and swampman

i would be composting at home with housemates and neighbours but also with community gardens on a bigger scale (which has space for compost piles and has contacts for horseshit, woodchip, restaurant scraps etc)

what size of critical masses is needed for compost piles to work efficiently?

i was thinking of using 1x1x1m plastic containers for them.
was also thinking of running copper water pipes through them as a heating source.
would these impede the composting process significantly?

is compost a good starter for making compost tea?
if i understand it needs to be aerated as anaerobic microbes are pathogenic to the soil (what do you do with rotten soil -- is there some way of remediating it?)

i have a source of biochar and believe its chemical structures is a good place for bacteria or myceliums to grow -- would just plonking some as the the tea brews be the way to innoculate it?
#104
i want to be a reactionary pos and go to lappland drinking shitloads, slash-n-burn substinence farming (just potatoes tho) and writing reactionary pos novels about my pos life. the slav/mongol blood beckons me
#105

xipe posted:

what size of critical masses is needed for compost piles to work efficiently?

i was thinking of using 1x1x1m plastic containers for them.

was also thinking of running copper water pipes through them as a heating source.
would these impede the composting process significantly?

Yeah the "critical mass" doesn't need to be huge, a yard of material will work. We always used to make our compost piles by putting four rebar posts in the dirt, circling them with chicken wire. Once the pile was ready to go to the garden, posts and chicken wire were easy to remove. You want the compost to have drainage and be exposed to the air. If you're intermixing enough roughage, the pile won't be super stinky and fly ridden anyway. Heating the pile is not necessary, the pile warms itself as the bacteria break down its molecules. Heat is a sign of healthy decomposition. Idk what the hell your tea question is about, that sounds more disgusting than barf and pee combined

#106

shriekingviolet posted:

Alas, post deletion is not a mod power


You can edit a post so that it contains nothing, though.

#107

dipshit420 posted:

shriekingviolet posted:

Alas, post deletion is not a mod power

You can edit a post so that it contains nothing, though.

But then it would just look like you posted

#108

swampman posted:

dipshit420 posted:

shriekingviolet posted:

Alas, post deletion is not a mod power

You can edit a post so that it contains nothing, though.

But then it would just look like you posted



Surely you can tell the difference between negative space and a pile of human excrement.

#109

xipe posted:

thanks deng and swampman

i would be composting at home with housemates and neighbours but also with community gardens on a bigger scale (which has space for compost piles and has contacts for horseshit, woodchip, restaurant scraps etc)

what size of critical masses is needed for compost piles to work efficiently?

i was thinking of using 1x1x1m plastic containers for them.
was also thinking of running copper water pipes through them as a heating source.
would these impede the composting process significantly?

is compost a good starter for making compost tea?
if i understand it needs to be aerated as anaerobic microbes are pathogenic to the soil (what do you do with rotten soil -- is there some way of remediating it?)

i have a source of biochar and believe its chemical structures is a good place for bacteria or myceliums to grow -- would just plonking some as the the tea brews be the way to innoculate it?



here's a good place for all your composting questions: http://ccetompkins.org/gardening/composting/compost-resources

the most important thing to remember abt composting is to manage moisture and air. composting is an aerobic process, so if you have too little air in your pile you'll wind up with anearobic bacteria predominating, which is slow, smelly and disgusting, and produces toxic byproducts that hurt plants. too much water can make your pile swampy and prevent good air penetration, but too little will limit bacterial growth. this is why mixing in things like dead leaves (my favorite), grass clippings, straw, sawdust, etc is important because it absorbs excess water but still stays relatively loose and allows air in.

i wouldn't use a plastic bin for composting,because it would limit air to the compost. do what swampman said and make a pile with some sort of wire fencing around it to keep it contained. one other thing you could do is get a 3ft length of perforated french drain or other wide pipe with holes in it and put it in the center of your cage so it rises thru the middle of your pile for extra air. don't bother with heating the compost with copper pipes, the bacterial action creates plenty of heat on its own, just heating it up passively wouldn't do much.

if you're gonna make compost tea, use well-seasoned compost (at least a year old) that is black, loose and friable, and isn't too dried out. some people add molasses or other sugar but i skip it. people in the permaculture world sing the praises of aerating it for 24hr with an aquarium pump and say it encourages bacterial proliferation but i just see it as a quicker way than topdressing to get compost to the roots of established plants. im lazy and just mix it vigorously with water and water the plants with it right away, but ymmv.

and i really know very little about biochar, never messed with it. i'd assume you'd want to work it into your soil rather than topdressing plants with it. as far as inoculating it with compost tea, i'm sure it wouldn't hurt. but if you've got good soil in the first place the resident bacteria will colonize it pretty quick

#110
we've had chickens in our backyard for a little over a year and a half now. we have a compost bin that's filled with just the poopy shavings from the coop and our old eggshells. shit is dank for tomatoes and other plants that love phosphorus
#111
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#112

tpaine posted:

oh my god you guys this is so inspiring about you all and your awesome successes with gardens. i am beaming over here.


don't be shy. tell us about the mold you've cultivated in the steel reserve cans under your bed. all gardens are welcome here.

#113

tpaine posted:

oh my god you guys this is so inspiring about you all and your awesome successes with gardens. i am beaming over here.

#114
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#115
some of the alcohol you drink comes from plants. i wouldn't recommend thinking about that though, it's kind of gross.
#116
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#117
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#118
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#119
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#120
if you want to die inside try using google to look at the vast number of people who have tried to figure out how to ferment meat to make alcohol