arbitrary execution during the kulak operation: "a good start"
it's a good example of how bourgeois democracies need a sort of veneer of plausible deniability when it comes to state violence in order to maintain legitimacy. the early soviet union didn't need that veneer, it was a party dictatorship and later an individual dictatorship
MarxUltor posted:The official story in 2016 is that black 9 year old boys are violent imminent threats to the life and safety of grown men wearing body armor and need to be destroyed.
I hear you. Under Stalinism pre teen boys are the threat we all want them to be. Commence Pavelification of all youths.
deleuzional posted:MarxUltor posted:The official story in 2016 is that black 9 year old boys are violent imminent threats to the life and safety of grown men wearing body armor and need to be destroyed.
I hear you. Under Stalinism pre teen boys are the threat we all want them to be. Commence Pavelification of all youths.
*lights brazier of incense* (Chanting) "Roseweird..."
Panopticon posted:it's a good example of how bourgeois democracies need a sort of veneer of plausible deniability when it comes to state violence in order to maintain legitimacy. the early soviet union didn't need that veneer, it was a party dictatorship and later an individual dictatorship
I duno Panopticon... Stalinism was reliant on having elaborate justifications for stuff. The NKVD had staff writers who would assist people in writing confessions that were consistent in tone and theme with the narrative amongst party brass. It is important to remember that just because something sounds silly in another language and country over half a century ago does not mean that it was not very important to that society. Stalinism has a mass psychology that transcends it's own theory, and it is distinct from capitalist style rule of of law. It has already been said on this thread that even elites were not safe from the purge. Stalinism actually held elites people accountable, even if only at random intervals. The Soviet nihilism and resignation was a by product of the post Stalin milieu.
deleuzional posted:Panopticon posted:it's a good example of how bourgeois democracies need a sort of veneer of plausible deniability when it comes to state violence in order to maintain legitimacy. the early soviet union didn't need that veneer, it was a party dictatorship and later an individual dictatorship
I duno Panopticon... Stalinism was reliant on having elaborate justifications for stuff. The NKVD had staff writers who would assist people in writing confessions that were consistent in tone and theme with the narrative amongst party brass. It is important to remember that just because something sounds silly in another language and country over half a century ago does not mean that it was not very important to that society. Stalinism has a mass psychology that transcends it's own theory, and it is distinct from capitalist style rule of of law. It has already been said on this thread that even elites were not safe from the purge. Stalinism actually held elites people accountable, even if only at random intervals. The Soviet nihilism and resignation was a by product of the post Stalin milieu.
you are right that there were justifications and accountability of elites, it was just accountability towards the party's goal of transforming society and protecting the state, rather than accountability towards the idea of rule of law. i was looking at it from the perspective of my own value system.
The united States is a quarter millennium old genocidal empire of blood reigning unchecked around the globe.
One uses the state monopoly of violence to shoot children in the street, whioe preaching its own virtue throught he most complex propaganda machine imaginable, and one is accused of not doing enough paperwork while dispossessing and terminating the landlord class which was kinda the actual point of the revolution in the first place.
To hold the developmental stage of Soviet Socialist government to a standard of having a 100% fully codified and published legal system administered freely and fairly without error by a classless organization of lawful good panopticons seems to me a bit overly critical. It's good to have immense respect for the accomplishments of the Soviets of Stalin's era without necessarily placing them on that high a pedestal.
MarxUltor posted:The early Soviet Union was a newly formed state forged from the fires of liberatory revolutionary war DURING a world war, in a pre-tech era from poverty and ignorance stricken backwaters into one of the largest and most diverse nations in history while casting down all previously existing social contracts and philosophies of governance and was under severe threat of extermination at basically every second of its existence from every other imperial power on the planet united.
The united States is a quarter millennium old genocidal empire of blood reigning unchecked around the globe.
One uses the state monopoly of violence to shoot children in the street, whioe preaching its own virtue throught he most complex propaganda machine imaginable, and one is accused of not doing enough paperwork while dispossessing and terminating the landlord class which was kinda the actual point of the revolution in the first place.
To hold the developmental stage of Soviet Socialist government to a standard of having a 100% fully codified and published legal system administered freely and fairly without error by a classless organization of lawful good panopticons seems to me a bit overly critical. It's good to have immense respect for the accomplishments of the Soviets of Stalin's era without necessarily placing them on that high a pedestal.
what you say is largely true but terminating the landlord class was 1. probably unnecessary and 2. an arbitrary abuse of power
there's a case for most of the purges, to a point.
ensure the army is loyal to the party? sure, the fascists were on the rise. torture and execute half the officer corps on spurious grounds? a bit far, don't you think? a bit callous?
reel in the local authorities after the GPW? understandable, if there were problems. execute several thousand senior party members who had demonstrated ability and loyalty for decades, including the chief economist of gosplan? what on earth was the point of that?
why did stalin's purges always have to end in oceans of blood?
Panopticon posted:maybe the soviet union didn't need democracy and rule of law. maybe someone just needed to explain the concept of "early retirement" to stalin
a valid point, dr. kissinger
To a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Stalin spent so much time shooting fascists that he probably did go too far. But at least he really did kill a fucking lot of actual fascists. You could reasonably argue that a civilian leadership cadre organized around scholarly Marxist-Leninist principles may have operated more justly. You could also just as reasonably argue that Hitler would still be dancing on their graves. I'm not equipped to say which way is right, but I would be skeptical of any militant leadership after a successful revolution if one was ever to occur in my lifetime.
Also please keep in mind the known example of Thomas Sankara. Led a Marxist revolution, just for the US and France to turn his best friend and co-leader against him. Compoare had him murdered in the coup. We have no idea who among the soviets the various empires were tempting and how. That doesn't explain excess, but I think history gives us reason to be critical and not assume every apparent abuse described in anticommunist writing really was.
Also fwiw I think this whole thread has been good discussion and probably one of the more important in recent memory. It's helpful and important to be able to think about this stuff and develop the understanding and arguments to deal with the blood washing of communist history. I dunno if you're care trolling or fully sincere or some blend at this point but if we can't have a good discussion with one of own about the legacy of Stalin then how can anyone expect to engage outsiders?
Panopticon posted:what you say is largely true but terminating the landlord class was 1. probably unnecessary
what
karphead posted:Panopticon posted:what you say is largely true but terminating the landlord class was 1. probably unnecessary
what
cuba managed to collectivise without killing landowners en masse, i dont see why the soviet union couldn't have managed it
its a little disingenuous to compare the two situations. i think marxultor is right that there is probably violence that could have been avoided, but the particulars of that are extremely difficult for us to judge as there is actually no similar historical situation to compare it with fairly, except perhaps revolutionary france: in which case I'd say the soviets handled themselves admirably.
karphead posted:because there is no Florida in Asia
soviet emigration visas were very difficult to obtain. it seems like letting people leave of their own volition would be a great way to let people opposed to socialism purge themselves. shooting them was inhumane and probably created more opposition.
shriekingviolet posted:the soviet union was completely alone, the first of its kind, and had no significant support to help them establish a stable state free of the influences of bourgeois classes. cuba had significant material support from uh.... oh that's right, the soviet union.
its a little disingenuous to compare the two situations. i think marxultor is right that there is probably violence that could have been avoided, but the particulars of that are extremely difficult for us to judge as there is actually no similar historical situation to compare it with fairly, except perhaps revolutionary france: in which case I'd say the soviets handled themselves admirably.
perhaps allowing anti-communists to leave the country would have been one way of reducing the influence of anti-communists within the country without resorting the arbitrary executions of class enemies
Panopticon posted:perhaps allowing anti-communists to leave the country would have been one way of reducing the influence of anti-communists within the country without resorting the arbitrary executions of class enemies
anti-communists need to die eventually. or did u have a plan to convert them
MarxUltor posted:Also please keep in mind the known example of Thomas Sankara.
this is my crux. this is war.
Those landlords then spent the next 60 years funding insurgents, propaganda, assassination attempts, kidnappings, terrorism, fomenting counterrevolution and betrayal, and bribing right wing american politicians to always dream a bigger dream to impose stricter blockades, greater quantities of suffering upon the Cuban people and isolating them in every possible way from the world just because.
It's probably possible to have picked a worse example.
Panopticon posted:i was planning on converting them by demonstrating the superior morality of the socialist system, but they keep bringing up this stalin guy
Yeah it sounds like these are stupid people who can't understand context, and that they probably have some ulterior reason to dislike communism, and should die
MarxUltor posted:Cuba got away with not killing a bunch of landlords because those landlords were american corporations and compradors living in america and sheltered by the american military which was propping up the Cuban fascist regime. The dispossession of those landlords is the literal exact thing which caused the embargo. The unwillingness of the Cuban people to make full restitution to the american capitalists with the terms, conditions, vehicles of payment, and calculated interest wholly dictated by the foreign capitalists is the primary reason for its endurance.
Those landlords then spent the next 60 years funding insurgents, propaganda, assassination attempts, kidnappings, terrorism, fomenting counterrevolution and betrayal, and bribing right wing american politicians to always dream a bigger dream to impose stricter blockades, greater quantities of suffering upon the Cuban people and isolating them in every possible way from the world just because.
It's probably possible to have picked a worse example.
so who are the floridian cubans
Panopticon posted:MarxUltor posted:It's probably possible to have picked a worse example.
so who are the floridian cubans
My coworker is one of them, they were talkign about how their family had lost its livelihood and had to flee the country in the revolution, totally unjust, then I asked what their family did and it turns out their grandpa was involved in prostitution and the mafia in cuba
swampman posted:Panopticon posted:MarxUltor posted:It's probably possible to have picked a worse example.
so who are the floridian cubans
My coworker is one of them, they were talkign about how their family had lost its livelihood and had to flee the country in the revolution, totally unjust, then I asked what their family did and it turns out their grandpa was involved in prostitution and the mafia in cuba
and now thanks to castro's foresight on the matter, you have the opportunity to teach him how great stalin is
if you'd rather he were dead go ahead and shoot him, i hear americans have easy access to guns
Panopticon posted:i saw you use and it figured you wanted in
it's cool, i wanna be an air fail ranger
Panopticon posted:so who are the floridian cubans
people who've been observing 60 years 'superior morality of the socialist system' where they came from but still want to destroy that system with murder and starvation.
weird.
Panopticon posted:MarxUltor posted:Cuba got away with not killing a bunch of landlords because those landlords were american corporations and compradors living in america and sheltered by the american military which was propping up the Cuban fascist regime. The dispossession of those landlords is the literal exact thing which caused the embargo. The unwillingness of the Cuban people to make full restitution to the american capitalists with the terms, conditions, vehicles of payment, and calculated interest wholly dictated by the foreign capitalists is the primary reason for its endurance.
Those landlords then spent the next 60 years funding insurgents, propaganda, assassination attempts, kidnappings, terrorism, fomenting counterrevolution and betrayal, and bribing right wing american politicians to always dream a bigger dream to impose stricter blockades, greater quantities of suffering upon the Cuban people and isolating them in every possible way from the world just because.
It's probably possible to have picked a worse example.so who are the floridian cubans
a miserable pile of secrets
xipe posted:Panopticon posted:
so who are the floridian cubans
people who've been observing 60 years 'superior morality of the socialist system' where they came from but still want to destroy that system with murder and starvation.
weird.
and yet russia has fallen further than cuba. i'd say, as to whether mass executions secure the state's security or merely disillusion them further, the jury is out (unlike the ussr under stalin, where there were no jury trials)
Panopticon posted:if you'd rather he were dead go ahead and shoot him, i hear americans have easy access to guns
I don't wish they were dead. But I can see why a country would kill someone like their grandpa, instead of just saying "and dont come back!" My coworker's life sucks a lot btw. They have nothing and they recently they almost died from carbon monoxide poisoning thanks to their landlord.
Makes me think the real choice wasnt with the community choosing "exile / death / forgiveness" - those outcomes are dictated by the situation. But rather the real choice was with their grandpa who chose to flee justice. And if the grandpa had surrendered and given up their life of crime, early on, and repented sincerely, my coworker would probably be in cuba, speaking spanish which they prefer to english (but many hispanic people in nyc will not speak spanish to cubans, because they're expats), they'd probably be an RN with arooftop garden,... it makes you, uh, think....
..and in the same way. Why should I feel bad for the individuals in the landlord class who committed no "crime" but were still purged. If their communities felt the individual had resisted communism, had not abandoned their class early on, and had lived in strict accordance with unjust laws that favor them? Why should members of the exploiter class be spared for only exploiting fairly, why should the bourgeoisie be forgiven because they were obedient to laws that protected bourgeois class comforts at the expense of the masses?
Panopticon posted:MarxUltor posted:It's probably possible to have picked a worse example.
so who are the floridian cubans
gusanos