swirlsofhistory posted:

I'm reading some Ivan Illich and noticing around me the symptoms of what he calls social iatrogenesis. People I know who talk about themselves as if their afflictions or disorders are more in control than they are. "My anxiety makes me..." They'll call in sick for the most minor complaints, and it's easy to put this down to being lazy or workshy, but talking to them I think they actually believe they are victims of their personified illnesses. Would a lazy person waste time off obsessing over their exaggerated illness, and generally being more miserable about their situation than that they are shirking? They really go to the doctor to get counseling and medical relief for feelings of anxiety or depression when their problems are things like being overworked, stress, loneliness, failed ambitions or no ambitions at all. The difficulties have to do with living as a social animal, the tangible things like the healthiness of a person's relationships with others, their finances; all things that a person has to use their willpower if they want to change. Social iatrogenesis becomes a real problem when a person who might've protested against their conditions, fought for their rights against others taking advantage of them, is totally atomized into a struggle between themselves and their pathology. It's not good for others around them trying to build solidarity, and it's not good for them as individuals. Some of these people can't even quit jobs they obviously hate and are being taken advantage of at without consulting the doctor. When they are at the point they think like that, does the answer even matter? The worst thing is I feel being drawn in myself. I've spent more time in doctors offices in the last year than most, and there's a warm feeling of relief in the doctor assuring you you're sick and you are free from responsibilities until you get better. You don't have to tell someone you don't want to do something anymore, or you won't because it's unfair-- you can't because the doctor said so.

that's the neoliberal solution to things: it's all the individual's burden, which can only be described officially by professionsals. the only way to combat things is by thinking of yourself as the object as they do you, and thinking of big nasty things like institutions, work, all relationships etc as essentially changeable

swampman posted:

Keven posted:

Is learned helplessness actually real??

The set of behaviors described as learned helplessness is definitely real. I do work with a lot of dogs who could be described in those terms. Dogs that are totally frozen in fear, who won't eat with people around, who walk through puddles on cold days... one dog is "housebroken" in that he tries not to pee inside, but once his bladder is full, he gets anxious and hides and won't move until he actually can't hold it anymore and pees all over himself. There's a dog door, he could let himself out and pee in the backyard, but the anxiety makes him freeze up.

maybe hes just a stupid dog

animedad posted:

swirlsofhistory posted:

I'm reading some Ivan Illich and noticing around me the symptoms of what he calls social iatrogenesis. People I know who talk about themselves as if their afflictions or disorders are more in control than they are. "My anxiety makes me..." They'll call in sick for the most minor complaints, and it's easy to put this down to being lazy or workshy, but talking to them I think they actually believe they are victims of their personified illnesses. Would a lazy person waste time off obsessing over their exaggerated illness, and generally being more miserable about their situation than that they are shirking? They really go to the doctor to get counseling and medical relief for feelings of anxiety or depression when their problems are things like being overworked, stress, loneliness, failed ambitions or no ambitions at all. The difficulties have to do with living as a social animal, the tangible things like the healthiness of a person's relationships with others, their finances; all things that a person has to use their willpower if they want to change. Social iatrogenesis becomes a real problem when a person who might've protested against their conditions, fought for their rights against others taking advantage of them, is totally atomized into a struggle between themselves and their pathology. It's not good for others around them trying to build solidarity, and it's not good for them as individuals. Some of these people can't even quit jobs they obviously hate and are being taken advantage of at without consulting the doctor. When they are at the point they think like that, does the answer even matter? The worst thing is I feel being drawn in myself. I've spent more time in doctors offices in the last year than most, and there's a warm feeling of relief in the doctor assuring you you're sick and you are free from responsibilities until you get better. You don't have to tell someone you don't want to do something anymore, or you won't because it's unfair-- you can't because the doctor said so.

that's the neoliberal solution to things: it's all the individual's burden, which can only be described officially by professionsals.

that isn't accurate. the pathologization of personal failings is the liberal attempt to make no one responsible for their own behavior

tsinava posted:

i don't think calling severe anxiety issues in animals (including humans) "learned helplessness" is a good idea.

"Learned helplessness" sounds like someone pretending to be incompetent for material gain or something, it has a weird connotation.


whatever. opinions and stuff.

I don't glean that from the word, I think your interpretation would be more apt for "intentional helplessness" or something.

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

animedad posted:
swirlsofhistory posted:
I'm reading some Ivan Illich and noticing around me the symptoms of what he calls social iatrogenesis. People I know who talk about themselves as if their afflictions or disorders are more in control than they are. "My anxiety makes me..." They'll call in sick for the most minor complaints, and it's easy to put this down to being lazy or workshy, but talking to them I think they actually believe they are victims of their personified illnesses. Would a lazy person waste time off obsessing over their exaggerated illness, and generally being more miserable about their situation than that they are shirking? They really go to the doctor to get counseling and medical relief for feelings of anxiety or depression when their problems are things like being overworked, stress, loneliness, failed ambitions or no ambitions at all. The difficulties have to do with living as a social animal, the tangible things like the healthiness of a person's relationships with others, their finances; all things that a person has to use their willpower if they want to change. Social iatrogenesis becomes a real problem when a person who might've protested against their conditions, fought for their rights against others taking advantage of them, is totally atomized into a struggle between themselves and their pathology. It's not good for others around them trying to build solidarity, and it's not good for them as individuals. Some of these people can't even quit jobs they obviously hate and are being taken advantage of at without consulting the doctor. When they are at the point they think like that, does the answer even matter? The worst thing is I feel being drawn in myself. I've spent more time in doctors offices in the last year than most, and there's a warm feeling of relief in the doctor assuring you you're sick and you are free from responsibilities until you get better. You don't have to tell someone you don't want to do something anymore, or you won't because it's unfair-- you can't because the doctor said so.
that's the neoliberal solution to things: it's all the individual's burden, which can only be described officially by professionsals.


that isn't accurate. the pathologization of personal failings is the liberal attempt to make no one responsible for their own behavior

you're confusing ideals for reality, of course everyone is "dealt with" (if not "held responsible") no matter and people that are mentally ill usually end up in prison.

Internalization of suffering is practically a required theme in middlebrow American fiction. you have to "own" your illness, "make it yours", etc, as some sort of depoliticized thing. this isn't terrible, but combines with lack of resources and no easy access to safe treatment it is hideous garbage

swampman posted:

Yeah "learned helplessness" (it's not my term) is in a sense the inflation of a coping strategy that has positive results for isolated stressful encounters. When we get caught in a disaster, we tend to have more positive outcomes when we take responsibility in some way - even just to say, "oh I had a bad feeling that morning, and I should have listened to it."

As for using the term on animals, I'd say it's even more accurate than with humans. Sometimes a rescued dog openly displays the way it was abused. A normal puppy who is potty training will first learn to pee out of the way, but that doesn't mean outside. If the owner responds with a little punishment, the puppy learns to go hide when it pees. If the owner responds to that with a little punishment, the dog might get lucky and try peeing outside and avoid punishment, but what the dog has learned is "don't pee when the owner's home." Now let's say the owner punishes the dog severely for accidents. Rubbing its face in the mess, yelling, smacking it, holding it on its back to stress it out. The puppy learns - don't pee around this guy!! Then the puppy has an accident. Now it's getting a beating just for being near a puddle, which is beyond the ability of a dog to control. And what's more - the dog now fears the abuse it knows is coming, and the feeling of fear itself becomes associated with punishment. Then the dog starts pissing itself out of fear and that's when the owner realizes how unnatural and cruel their relationship with their "best friend" has become and they give it up to the shelter. Happens a lot

can you believe people ask why i feel less for human suffering