#721
snape
#722

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

snape


snape...tane... stane... stang?!

#723
i still cant believe that there are people who are really excited to vote for hillary clinton. people under like 50
#724
i think about it sometimes and i can't even comprehend somebody like that. a sincere sanders supporter i can understand. republicans i can understand. PSL marxoteens i can understand. aside from the most facile motivations, name recognition and maybe wanting a woman president, i can't even get into the head of a clinton supporter. it's just a great big fog when i try to imagine what's going on in there. the best i can grapple with is an agglomeration of cliches and ignorance shaped in the caricature of a person. but she's got to have intelligent and informed supporters too. what is that person even like
#725
gleefully inflicting 4 years of misery on America's misogynists?

also the 90s were good for a lot of people. if you hypothesize the person in question either not caring about the destruction of Libya or actively thinking it was a good thing because of glorious arab spring and being a generic moderate liberal i don't see much to be mystified about
#726
yeah but to me even a generic moderate liberal who was intelligent and informed would know the prosperity of the 90s was largely based on fraud and has had long-term consequences that has hollowed out the economy, possibly forever. plus like...everything else she's done. you could say they want somebody who can beat the republicans, but we're not even talking about the necessity voters, we're talking about people who wake up in the morning and say I'ma PHONEBANK for Hillary!
#727

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

i think about it sometimes and i can't even comprehend somebody like that. a sincere sanders supporter i can understand. republicans i can understand. PSL marxoteens i can understand. aside from the most facile motivations, name recognition and maybe wanting a woman president, i can't even get into the head of a clinton supporter. it's just a great big fog when i try to imagine what's going on in there. the best i can grapple with is an agglomeration of cliches and ignorance shaped in the caricature of a person. but she's got to have intelligent and informed supporters too. what is that person even like

what if youre socially liberal and fiscally conservative

#728
generic moderate liberals think free trade is inherently good, and while they might recognize that the tech bubble was illusionary they would otherwise not agree at all with your position on 90s.
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#729
i imagine they're mostly slightly wealthier moderate liberals. people who read NYT. people who are long past caring about college or weed. people who consider themselves 'wonks'.
#730

Makeshift_Swahili posted:

i imagine they're mostly slightly wealthier moderate liberals. people who read NYT. people who are long past caring about college or weed. people who consider themselves 'wonks'.



yeah. i still cant get into the head of somebody like that though. some grown up staev or evilweasel. i can't believe they have rich inner thoughts. they are p-zombies

#731
My late 30s old san francisco born and raised punk dude anarchist coworker told me hed vote for hilary not bernie yesterday lol
#732
whycome
#733
i asked a thoughtful+intelligent person who i like+respect when i found out she supported hilary+believed strongly in reality of bernie bros abt it+she said parliamentarism is an empty charade + socialism can be achieved only through armed struggle and mass action at critical moments of crisis. bernie will be just as bought + paid for just as every other pres+even more useless than obama at arresting capitalism's omniphagous march (he never passed a successful bill in Vermont!) + thus move the cultural overton window even more rightwards, while hilary has at least faced more personal struggle throughout her life due to being at the end of the day an actual woman despite the size of her pocketbook+thus a vested personal interest in some kind of real world feminist progress e.g. stemming the piecemeal destruction of abortion rights+womens health provision which no matter how you spin it mainly benefits the working class women you were talking about earlier.so that was food for thought for me.

e: shes not white btw, whatever that means

Edited by littlegreenpills ()

#734

littlegreenpills posted:

i asked a thoughtful+intelligent person who i like+respect when i found out she supported hilary+believed strongly in reality of bernie bros abt it+she said parliamentarism is an empty charade + socialism can be achieved only through armed struggle and mass action at critical moments of crisis. bernie will be just as bought + paid for just as every other pres+even more useless than obama at arresting capitalism's omniphagous march (he never passed a successful bill in Vermont!) + thus move the cultural overton window even more rightwards, while hilary has at least faced more personal struggle throughout her life due to being at the end of the day an actual woman despite the size of her pocketbook+thus a vested personal interest in some kind of real world feminist progress e.g. stemming the piecemeal destruction of abortion rights+womens health provision which no matter how you spin it mainly benefits the working class women you were talking about earlier.so that was food for thought for me.


lol

#735

littlegreenpills posted:

i asked a thoughtful+intelligent person who i like+respect when i found out she supported hilary+believed strongly in reality of bernie bros abt it+she said parliamentarism is an empty charade + socialism can be achieved only through armed struggle and mass action at critical moments of crisis. bernie will be just as bought + paid for just as every other pres+even more useless than obama at arresting capitalism's omniphagous march (he never passed a successful bill in Vermont!) + thus move the cultural overton window even more rightwards, while hilary has at least faced more personal struggle throughout her life due to being at the end of the day an actual woman despite the size of her pocketbook+thus a vested personal interest in some kind of real world feminist progress e.g. stemming the piecemeal destruction of abortion rights+womens health provision which no matter how you spin it mainly benefits the working class women you were talking about earlier.so that was food for thought for me.


#736
imo she's absolutely and obviously right about how bernie the "socialist" will be much more harmful to the US left than clinton would be. the only questions are whether the considerably lower probability of murder export under bernitopia is worth sacrificing the interests of the US left (obviously yes) & whether discrediting nominal socialism will raise the risk of full-blown fascism at a later date to a sufficient degree that it'd be better to feed another MENA nation to the Hildog (probably not, idk tho???)
#737

littlegreenpills posted:

e: shes not white btw, whatever that means


welp. imho it still fits into the category of "white feminism" to consider someone that enthusiastically supports the systematic pillaging ruination and murder of the third world (women live there) a feminist, or a positive influence for feminist causes. in the same way that sanders is the World's Shittiest Socialist.

it makes a certain kind of ruthlessly pragmatic sense as far as short term self interest goes though, and i guess the amount of blood on your hands won't really change no matter who's president.

#738
it's not representative of the normal hillary voter so it's not really relevant to goatsteins ponderings but secondly it's a totally insane rationalization. a complaint that parliamentarism is an empty charade simultaneously being made alongside a strategic appeal to vote for hillary because of 11th dimensional overton windows. it also misdiagnoses bernies flaws while not even taking note of hillarys far more deadly brand of imperialism
#739

thirdplace posted:

imo she's absolutely and obviously right about how bernie the "socialist" will be much more harmful to the US left than clinton would be. the only questions are whether the considerably lower probability of murder export under bernitopia is worth sacrificing the interests of the US left (obviously yes) & whether discrediting nominal socialism will raise the risk of full-blown fascism at a later date to a sufficient degree that it'd be better to feed another MENA nation to the Hildog (probably not, idk tho???)


sanders doesn't actually have an anti-war record though, he's quick to remind us all he opposed iraq, but has voted in favour of plenty of other us campaigns. and his stated platform explicitly is not anti-war or anti-interventionist. even if he was actually advocating the policy people are wishfully imagining existed, it wouldn't last a single day past the election.

#740
theres no possible leftist justification for supporting an imperialist who loves exploiting third world workers for slave labor and who voted for the iraq war, got ghaddafi sodomized, will bomb the shit out of assad etc. shriekingviolets img is very much relevant in this way
#741
wait do people in this thread think the us president actually makes any difference as to where and when you folks will go to war next. lmfao
#742

littlegreenpills posted:

i asked a thoughtful+intelligent person who i like+respect when i found out she supported hilary+believed strongly in reality of bernie bros abt it+she said parliamentarism is an empty charade + socialism can be achieved only through armed struggle and mass action at critical moments of crisis. bernie will be just as bought + paid for just as every other pres+even more useless than obama at arresting capitalism's omniphagous march (he never passed a successful bill in Vermont!) + thus move the cultural overton window even more rightwards, while hilary has at least faced more personal struggle throughout her life due to being at the end of the day an actual woman despite the size of her pocketbook+thus a vested personal interest in some kind of real world feminist progress e.g. stemming the piecemeal destruction of abortion rights+womens health provision which no matter how you spin it mainly benefits the working class women you were talking about earlier.so that was food for thought for me.

e: shes not white btw, whatever that means


this is like reading something by a marxist anarchist or a mtw because it starts off diagnosing some problems in a way that makes sense but then totally veers off over a cliff once it comes to making decisions about what actions to take and the lower-level motivations for them

#743
i think the idea that voting in a faux-left-wing candidate that fails is generally harmful to the left is false. it just creates a new opening that discredits the reformist left. i think that's usually a precondition for radical left change, not a danger to it. like would you hope the cadets won in russia because the mensheviks will discredit socialism.
#744
the whole point of radical leftism is that it interrupts a process that it normally has no place for.
#745

littlegreenpills posted:

being at the end of the day an actual woman


#746

Gssh posted:

littlegreenpills posted:

being at the end of the day an actual woman



i know thats what i said. then we moved off politics, which is for losers and perverts, and looked at neko atsume screenshots

#747

shriekingviolet posted:

wait do people in this thread think the us president actually makes any difference as to where and when you folks will go to war next. lmfao

I'll cop to thinking it makes a difference on the margins, and that the overall scope of the issue is so mind-rendingly monstrous that even the margins are worth caring about. imo, for example, a more aggressive bellicose president would have bombed syria earlier, and possibly used ground troops. even if the difference between a hawk and a "dove" boil down to the bombs falling in september rather than march, Every Day is a Gift

also, I am a liberal

#748

getfiscal posted:

i think the idea that voting in a faux-left-wing candidate that fails is generally harmful to the left is false. it just creates a new opening that discredits the reformist left. i think that's usually a precondition for radical left change, not a danger to it. like would you hope the cadets won in russia because the mensheviks will discredit socialism.

yeah maybe in most countries but we're talking about Amerikkka here

#749

c_man posted:

littlegreenpills posted:

i asked a thoughtful+intelligent person who i like+respect when i found out she supported hilary+believed strongly in reality of bernie bros abt it+she said parliamentarism is an empty charade + socialism can be achieved only through armed struggle and mass action at critical moments of crisis. bernie will be just as bought + paid for just as every other pres+even more useless than obama at arresting capitalism's omniphagous march (he never passed a successful bill in Vermont!) + thus move the cultural overton window even more rightwards, while hilary has at least faced more personal struggle throughout her life due to being at the end of the day an actual woman despite the size of her pocketbook+thus a vested personal interest in some kind of real world feminist progress e.g. stemming the piecemeal destruction of abortion rights+womens health provision which no matter how you spin it mainly benefits the working class women you were talking about earlier.so that was food for thought for me.

e: shes not white btw, whatever that means

this is like reading something by a marxist anarchist or a mtw because it starts off diagnosing some problems in a way that makes sense but then totally veers off over a cliff once it comes to making decisions about what actions to take and the lower-level motivations for them

im a mtw, chump

#750

c_man posted:

littlegreenpills posted:

i asked a thoughtful+intelligent person who i like+respect when i found out she supported hilary+believed strongly in reality of bernie bros abt it+she said parliamentarism is an empty charade + socialism can be achieved only through armed struggle and mass action at critical moments of crisis. bernie will be just as bought + paid for just as every other pres+even more useless than obama at arresting capitalism's omniphagous march (he never passed a successful bill in Vermont!) + thus move the cultural overton window even more rightwards, while hilary has at least faced more personal struggle throughout her life due to being at the end of the day an actual woman despite the size of her pocketbook+thus a vested personal interest in some kind of real world feminist progress e.g. stemming the piecemeal destruction of abortion rights+womens health provision which no matter how you spin it mainly benefits the working class women you were talking about earlier.so that was food for thought for me.

e: shes not white btw, whatever that means

this is like reading something by a marxist anarchist or a mtw because it starts off diagnosing some problems in a way that makes sense but then totally veers off over a cliff once it comes to making decisions about what actions to take and the lower-level motivations for them

if you pare it down to only the actual pro hillary points then all that's left is "Hillary is a woman and is good on abortion" which is pretty much just textbook liberal

#751
the second one isnt even really true
#752
which i guess is also textbook liberal?
#753
[account deactivated]
#754
yeah the hillary supporters that aren't visible are just uninformed, and the visible hillary supporters like peter daou, tom watson, lena dunham, etc. are just establishment sycophants hoping to get some sort of white house appointment or at least the chance to hang out there
#755
[account deactivated]
#756
people say US elections "don't matter" because every candidate is pro-imperialist when the same could be said about elections in any other first world country.
#757
well yeah, but the states is the currently the primary mover of imperialism and heavily shapes the discourse (and course of elections...) in other western states, so its the most relevant to talk about
#758

HenryKrinkle posted:

people say US elections "don't matter" because every candidate is pro-imperialist when the same could be said about elections in any other first world country.


funny how the rest of the empire is not concerned with US domestic politics

#759
yeah, its more of a "throwing popcorn at the ringmaster" kind of relevancy
#760
[account deactivated]