#13321
lol, classic fbi.
#13322
/_/
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35427926
#13323
I am reading engel's The Peasants War in Germany. He's doing a great job of world-building so far.
#13324
I was thinking the other day I havent read enough of Engels besides the more "philosophical" shit they have you read in liberal arts classes, the n*ggerish jew letters, and select part of anti-Durhing(sp?). What are the essential engels readings?
#13325
The Origin of the Family is good. Also the introduction to Dialectics of Nature. Engels really appreciated the gravity of Marx's dialectic, and wanted to apply it to science. I think it's of great relevance to modern biology and psychology/neuroscience/philosophy of mind, and his introduction makes a good case for the application of dialectical materialism to fields outside of economics.
#13326
condition of the working class in england is a pretty good read. features this quote from a methodist abt using the weapons of god:

“You have no need to fear the power of Government, the soldiers, bayonets, and cannon that are at the disposal of your oppressors; you have a weapon that is far mightier than all these, a weapon against which bayonets and cannon are powerless, and a child of ten years can wield it. You have only to take a couple of matches and a bundle of straw dipped in pitch, and I will see what the Government and its hundreds of thousands of soldiers will do against this one weapon if it is used boldly.”
#13327
I got a booklet that's a history of the first 100 years of The Lehman Bros. firm (1850-1950). It was published in 1950 by the company and it begins with the rags to riches story about how a humble Bavarian merchant moved across the pond to Alabama to become a humble cotton trader before finally becoming a humble robber baron.

Edited by walkinginonit ()

#13328
I got in the mail, Grover Furr's book Bloodlands Blood Lies: The Evidence that Every Accusation against Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union in Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands Is False. PLUS: What Really Happened in: the Famine of 1932-33; the "Polish Operation"; the "Great Terror"; the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact; the "Soviet invasion of Poland"; the "Katyn Massacre"; the Warsaw Uprising; and "Stalin's Anti-Semitism" by Grover Furr. But I'm not reading it. I'm just touching it gently.
#13329
Deng Xiaoping: A Revolutionary Life by Alexander Pantsov and Steven Levine is a specimen of what can be called Post-Post Cold War historiography. It is an example of the type of book about a socialist leader that can be written when one is no longer dominated by either anti-communist hysteria or TINA triumphalism. While most biographies of Deng focus only the market reforms that he instituted in the 70s onward when he was already an old man , Pantsov and Levine devote much of the book to his career as a party cadre who dedicated the best years of his life to the revolution and who wished to fulfill, not destroy, the socialist China he had helped build. While many praise (or deride) him as a restorer of capitalism in China, Pantsov and Levine take seriously his life long Marxist convictions and his loyalty to the legacy of Mao, despite themselves being in no way committed to socialism. The strength of the book comes from its ability to deal both objectively and sympathetically with Deng and the Chinese Revolution despite the authors’ lack of commitment to socialism in any form.

The weakness of the book comes from its insistence on demonizing Mao in order to build up Deng. This is itself the symptom of a larger problem with historical explanation. The author’s lazily fall back on a sort of great-man theory of history lite, particularly when they feel the need to explain why things are going bad. Hence they insist on occasionally pressing Mao and Stalin into service as all-purpose whipping boys, despite the fact that, particularly in the case of Mao, their own views are more nuanced than those of the average bourgeois historian. The book would be stronger if the author’s had taken more seriously the language of class warfare used by their subject and his contemporaries. Their choice to not fit Mao’s and Deng’s actions within the context of larger social forces often leaves the impression that the Chinese people in the revolutionary period were a passive, easily manipulated mass, not dynamic makers of world history in their own right. This is the reverse of their intention; they take pains to emphasize that the first step towards a family contract system was taken by the peasants themselves, not the party. But because this is not integrated into a larger sociological analysis, the hows and the whys of this development are left hanging in mid-air.

Overall,though, it’s a good read.

Edited by RedMaistre ()

#13330
This report by Deng written in 1948 which won Mao's praise is also worth reading in full.

https://dengxiaopingworks.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/carry-out-the-party-central-committees-directive-on-the-work-of-land-reform-and-of-party-consolidation/
#13331
maoists always use the catchiest titles
#13332
this was a funny thread imho

http://www.rhizzone.net/forum/topic/12580/
#13333
Certainly the funniest thing to ever be produced from comparing the war against Takfirism in the Levant to the War in the Vendee.
#13334

HenryKrinkle posted:

this was a funny thread imho

http://www.rhizzone.net/forum/topic/12580/



my dwelling

#13335

Petrol posted:

Not reading material so much as research material - a massive collection of primarily US government documents here: http://that1archive.neocities.org/.


Just a heads up that the guy who runs this archive has started a Kickstarter to liberate a massive (11m pages) archive of declassified CIA documents which is practically inaccessible at the moment.

motherboard.vice.com/en_ca/read/11-million-pages-of-cia-files-may-soon-be-shared-by-this-kickstarter-crest posted:

Millions of pages of CIA documents are stored in Room 3000. The CIA Records Search Tool (CREST), the agency's database of declassified intelligence files, is only accessible via four computers in the National Archives Building in College Park, MD, and contains everything from Cold War intelligence, research and development files, to images.

Now one activist is aiming to get those documents more readily available to anyone who is interested in them, by methodically printing, scanning, and then archiving them on the internet.

“It boils down to freeing information and getting as much of it as possible into the hands of the public, not to mention journalists, researchers and historians,” Michael Best, analyst and freedom of information activist told Motherboard in an online chat.

Best is trying to raise $10,000 on Kickstarter in order to purchase the high speed scanner necessary for such a project, a laptop, office supplies, and to cover some other costs. If he raises more than the main goal, he might be able to take on the archiving task full-time, as well as pay for FOIAs to remove redactions from some of the files in the database. As a reward, backers will help to choose what gets archived first, according to the Kickstarter page.

“Once those "priority" documents are done, I'll start going through the digital folders more linearly and upload files by section,” Best said. The files will be hosted on the Internet Archive, which converts documents into other formats too, such as for Kindle devices, and sometimes text-to-speech for e-books...

In all, the project will likely take years, and also depends on how frequently the archive workers can replace the paper and ink of the printers.

“If I'm able to make it my full-time focus and keep the scanner going at 15,000 pages a day, like it's rated, then it would take between two and three years,” Best said.

As for the files themselves, CREST contains 11 million pages, according to the CIA's website, which Best says make up around 700,000 documents.

“There are about three times as many CIA files in the CREST database as there were diplomatic cables that were leaked by Chelsea Manning and Wikileaks,” Best said.

These include high level records from the agency's early years, completed intelligence reports, and daily briefings sent to US policy makers from 1951 up to 1979.

“The Central Intelligence Bulletins and National Intelligence Daily(s)/Dailies give insight into what was known when and what was a focus for the government on any given day, while the files from the Office of the Director of Central Intelligence give a top-down view of how CIA operated,” Best said.



If you have $25 to spare and want him to prioritise something, can't hurt to jump in. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/285662323/publishing-cias-declassified-vault

#13336
you can literally make up the most evil things you can think of about the cia for free. and they will not only be entirely true they will be understatements
#13337

The CIA Records Search Tool (CREST), the agency's database of declassified intelligence files, is only accessible via four computers in the National Archives Building in College Park, MD

lol

#13338

Michael Best posted:

“If I'm able to make it my full-time focus and keep the scanner going at 15,000 pages a day, like it's rated, then it would take between two and three years,”



I wonder why he hasn't tried to do this with a camera and just upload those/use OCR to extract the text from the images. Anything instead of printing. If he has physical access and is allowed to view, and also photograph the area (as he has in kickstarter page), it seems reasonable to suppose he could set up a little camera on a tripod and reduce his workload.

Also the 15k per day is for scanning only, not printing which would be a much slower rate.

Glad someone is doing this work, but there are probably more clever solutions than physically printing 11 million pages.





Edited by Gssh ()

#13339

Gssh posted:

Michael Best posted:
“If I'm able to make it my full-time focus and keep the scanner going at 15,000 pages a day, like it's rated, then it would take between two and three years,”


I wonder why he hasn't tried to do this with a camera and just upload those/use OCR to extract the text from the images. Anything instead of printing. If he has physical access and is allowed to view, and also photograph the area (as he has in kickstarter page), it seems reasonable to suppose he could set up a little camera on a tripod and reduce his workload.

Also the 15k per day is for scanning only, not printing which would be a much slower rate.

Glad someone is doing this work, but there are probably more clever solutions than physically printing 11 million pages.


i was thinking something like this but i am too mad at everything today to actually explain things. you're completely right though.

#13340
give him money regardless
#13341

Once at the computers, visitors aren't allowed to save any of the already digitized documents - instead they have to print the documents out while under several kinds of electronic surveillance

Guaranteed that if they plug something in, or otherwise attempt a setup that circumvents this process, whatever CIA staffer was told to obfuscate is going to scramble to find a new way to block easy access. Which is exactly what will happen to Best when they start their project anyway, even with the current plan - the printers will break and stay broken etc

#13342

Gssh posted:

I wonder why he hasn't tried to do this with a camera and just upload those/use OCR to extract the text from the images. Anything instead of printing. If he has physical access and is allowed to view, and also photograph the area (as he has in kickstarter page), it seems reasonable to suppose he could set up a little camera on a tripod and reduce his workload.



There's a difference between taking a couple of photos of the room/equipment and using a camera to systematically circumvent the arcane Beware Of The Leopard system they have set up there.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/04/cias-open-secrets posted:

Next to the computer terminals is a sign warning that "the CIA will gather and store information about your visit automatically" (a message driven home by two overhead video cameras encased in tinted glass) and that "unauthorized attempts to modify any information stored on this system, to defeat or circumvent security measures, or to utilize this system for other than its intended purposes are prohibited and may result in criminal prosecution."



Even the reams of CIA-provided paper you are obliged to print on are some weird shade of blue that is apparently different from - darker than - the also-blue paper provided elsewhere in NARA for printing

https://www.archives.gov/research/notices/blue-paper-copies.html posted:

We experimented with more than a dozen different colors to check for distortion of image and clarity of copy. The particular shade of blue, known as Windsor Blue and made by the Neenah Paper Company, is among the lightest shades of blue that is available to NARA, yet it stands out clearly among documents on white paper. The other options were pink and various shades of yellow. No one supported the idea of pink on aesthetic grounds and the yellows look too much like other documents. The Windsor Blue paper was pale enough to minimize the distortion of the image and blue enough to be easily detected by research room staff and guard staff. It will also assist researchers in preventing actual records from getting mixed or confused with their copies...

The CREST System is supported by the CIA. The CIA will continue to provide the paper used with that system. The blue paper that they will supply is going to be a somewhat darker shade of blue that the Windsor blue but they have agreed to provide blue paper in support of the security procedures recommended by the holdings protection team.




I think it's likely that any project to systematically retrieve everything from CREST and get it online is going to prompt the CIA to throw up some new hurdles, but I'm sure the system wouldn't exist in the first place if it weren't for some kind of legislative requirement... With enough negative attention, the agency will eventually have to back down and just digitise the lot. They can just make it completely disorganised and awful to wade though like their current FOIA site.

#13343
I read the majority of this debate between Albert Szymanski and Raymond Lotta on the nature of the USSR:

http://www.bannedthought.net/USSR/RCP-Docs/SUSoSI/SUSoSI-II-1983-Entire.pdf

And Lotta comes off like a crazy person who doesn't know anything substantive. A shame that debate with Zizek never happened but I can see why he was chosen instead of a normal Marxist who could reveal Zizek's lack of knowledge about economics and history.

More importantly, the entire idea of 'state-capitalism' and 'social-imperialism' appears to have no basis in reality. I'm sure there are better advocates than Lotta but I have yet to find them. But if the USSR was socialist, how do we explain its collapse into capitalism? The stagnation of the economy had to have roots deep in the socialist economy and these had to be severe enough that capitalism was the solution (considering there were no advocates for a return to Stalin's version of Preobrazhenskyism on any side). For me, the idea that it was a coup is unsatisfactory, even obvious coups like Libya and Poland have basis in fundamental material realities so we haven't actually explained anything. The alternative idea is Trokstyist 'degenerated worker's state' in which the economy is socialist and the political state is buraucratic/collectivist, but of course that idea has neither basis in material reality nor any predictive power.

I guess in the abstract I understand what happened to the USSR and all of the socialist states to greater or lesser degrees (what may have polemical value to be referred to as 'revisionism') but I don't have a coherent theory nor am I sure if one even exists. The economics are there, scattered through various books and papers, but rooting them back into political-economy hasn't occurred as far as I know. I'm interested if places like Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba, etc have discussions that we can't read which are richer than the crap the western left thinks is 'discussion'.
#13344
Szymanski's defence of Soviet socialism is essentially "sociological" in that he focuses on features of capitalism and shows that the USSR does not have them. Lotta's real focus is on circulation within the USSR from the perspective of production and its aim. I think Lotta is right that Soviet leaders were shifting towards the creation of "real" prices at all points of the production process, including capital goods. Within Soviet orthodoxy this was strongly denied, partly because floating prices were associated with food riots in memory.

I'd like to learn more about the debate in China in the early 1980s about this, where the conclusion was that commodity production is compatible with socialism (in terms that the Soviets would have rejected). Jools linked me to a Vietnamese thing today which reminded me that I think their commodity form debate evolved differently - I think they essentially admit that they are "oriented" towards socialism rather than truly socialist. In China the division is that they are currently in a "primary" stage, whereas I guess the more mature stage would be more consciously planned. I'm not sure people can have it both ways though - how could anyone possibly apply Szymanski's method to China or Vietnam and say they were socialist.

I think Deng is probably right that what "works" is really what matters, rather than conforming to an ideal, but what "works" probably isn't extensive market reforms that make the production process indistinguishable from other capitalist countries.
#13345
i would have guessed that ray liotta doesnt know a whole lot about the ussr
#13346
http://www.tickle-brits.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5124

alright which one of you was this
#13347
paging crow
#13348

getfiscal posted:

Szymanski's defence of Soviet socialism is essentially "sociological" in that he focuses on features of capitalism and shows that the USSR does not have them. Lotta's real focus is on circulation within the USSR from the perspective of production and its aim. I think Lotta is right that Soviet leaders were shifting towards the creation of "real" prices at all points of the production process, including capital goods. Within Soviet orthodoxy this was strongly denied, partly because floating prices were associated with food riots in memory.

I'd like to learn more about the debate in China in the early 1980s about this, where the conclusion was that commodity production is compatible with socialism (in terms that the Soviets would have rejected). Jools linked me to a Vietnamese thing today which reminded me that I think their commodity form debate evolved differently - I think they essentially admit that they are "oriented" towards socialism rather than truly socialist. In China the division is that they are currently in a "primary" stage, whereas I guess the more mature stage would be more consciously planned. I'm not sure people can have it both ways though - how could anyone possibly apply Szymanski's method to China or Vietnam and say they were socialist.

I think Deng is probably right that what "works" is really what matters, rather than conforming to an ideal, but what "works" probably isn't extensive market reforms that make the production process indistinguishable from other capitalist countries.



I was too dismissive of Lotta, I guess I was turned off because it didn't seem like he actually addressed anything Szymanski said and also had that weird way of speaking in non-human Maospeak.

Anyway I was reading some posts from a thread we debated in a couple of years ago and actually agreed with myself on this very subject. So that's good. Anyway I'm pretty close to a breakthrough in my own brain. Has anyone read Fredric Jameson's The Political Unconscious? Apparently it's very Althusserian which I think is a key to a lot of things.

#13349

babyhueypnewton posted:

The stagnation of the economy had to have roots deep in the socialist economy and these had to be severe enough that capitalism was the solution

this seems like a weird idealist conception of history to me, treating the USSR as a closed system in isolation and ignoring the massive collaborative effort to undermine and sabotage it at every turn. or at least minimizing it., sorry if im missing something or misunderstanding the post im dying

#13350
dont die chickeon
#13351
get well soon chicken!
#13352
have some non-cannibalistic soup!
#13353

chickeon posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

The stagnation of the economy had to have roots deep in the socialist economy and these had to be severe enough that capitalism was the solution

this seems like a weird idealist conception of history to me, treating the USSR as a closed system in isolation and ignoring the massive collaborative effort to undermine and sabotage it at every turn. or at least minimizing it., sorry if im missing something or misunderstanding the post im dying



this is correct obv but one of the major problems with trotskyism/anarchism/ultra-leftism is that actual socialism serves a ressentiment function. Trotskyism never happens because 'Stalinists' are always stabbing it in the back, Anarchism is simply too good before the dastardly betrayal in Spain by communists, etc. Obviously this fantasy doesn't stand up to historical scrutiny but there's a deeper fantasy, that any ideology which doesn't contain the method for its implementation in the face of repression is meant to remain imaginary. One doesn't even need to get into historical specificity because it's clear that the catch-all of 'betrayal' is pathological, it serves a necessary structural role in the fantasy to allow it to function at all and ultra-leftism would collapse if forced to face a reality without 'the other of the other.'

I think the strength of Marxism-Leninism, besides actually existing, is that it is an ideology of what exists. It takes severe repression, invasion and civil war, economic sabotage, and most importantly repression of other ideologies as given because that's what actually occurs. So I try to apply that logic in general and see what the weaknesses of the Soviet Union within its own ideological universe are, even though much of this stems from the direct and indirect war of the imperialist West. This kind of strict structuralism may not be needed but I find it useful.

Edited by babyhueypnewton ()

#13354

babyhueypnewton posted:

chickeon posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

The stagnation of the economy had to have roots deep in the socialist economy and these had to be severe enough that capitalism was the solution

this seems like a weird idealist conception of history to me, treating the USSR as a closed system in isolation and ignoring the massive collaborative effort to undermine and sabotage it at every turn. or at least minimizing it., sorry if im missing something or misunderstanding the post im dying

this is correct obv but one of the major problems with trotskyism/anarchism/ultra-leftism is that actual socialism serves a ressentiment function. Trotskyism never happens because 'Stalinists' are always stabbing it in the back, Anarchism is simply too good before the dastardly betrayal in Spain by communists, etc. Obviously this fantasy doesn't stand up to historical scrutiny but there's a deeper fantasy, that any ideology which doesn't contain the method for its implementation in the face of repression is meant to remain imaginary. One doesn't even need to get into historical specificity because it's clear that the catch-all of 'betrayal' is pathological, it serves a necessary structural role in the fantasy to allow it to function at all and ultra-leftism would collapse if forced to face a reality without 'the other of the other.'

I think the strength of Marxism-Leninism, besides actually existing, is that it is an ideology of what exists. It takes severe repression, invasion and civil war, economic sabotage, and most importantly repression of other ideologies as given because that's what actually occurs. So I try to apply that logic in general and see what the weaknesses of the Soviet Union within its own ideological universe are, even though much of this stems from the direct and indirect war of the imperialist West. This kind of strict structuralism may not be needed but I find it useful for.

Agreed.....

#13355

babyhueypnewton posted:

I read the majority of this debate between Albert Szymanski and Raymond Lotta on the nature of the USSR:

http://www.bannedthought.net/USSR/RCP-Docs/SUSoSI/SUSoSI-II-1983-Entire.pdf

And Lotta comes off like a crazy person who doesn't know anything substantive. A shame that debate with Zizek never happened but I can see why he was chosen instead of a normal Marxist who could reveal Zizek's lack of knowledge about economics and history.

More importantly, the entire idea of 'state-capitalism' and 'social-imperialism' appears to have no basis in reality. I'm sure there are better advocates than Lotta but I have yet to find them. But if the USSR was socialist, how do we explain its collapse into capitalism? The stagnation of the economy had to have roots deep in the socialist economy and these had to be severe enough that capitalism was the solution (considering there were no advocates for a return to Stalin's version of Preobrazhenskyism on any side). For me, the idea that it was a coup is unsatisfactory, even obvious coups like Libya and Poland have basis in fundamental material realities so we haven't actually explained anything. The alternative idea is Trokstyist 'degenerated worker's state' in which the economy is socialist and the political state is buraucratic/collectivist, but of course that idea has neither basis in material reality nor any predictive power.

I guess in the abstract I understand what happened to the USSR and all of the socialist states to greater or lesser degrees (what may have polemical value to be referred to as 'revisionism') but I don't have a coherent theory nor am I sure if one even exists. The economics are there, scattered through various books and papers, but rooting them back into political-economy hasn't occurred as far as I know. I'm interested if places like Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba, etc have discussions that we can't read which are richer than the crap the western left thinks is 'discussion'.



Most high-ranking Soviet party operatives transitioned smoothly into neoliberal politicians, architects of the shock therapy, etc. That fact alone gives you enough clues about the degree of ossification of ideological production and how these "communists" revealed themselves to be such convinced bourgeois ideologues of "entrepreneurial" statecraft, But yeah it's still confusing to me... I mean, it's understandable in Poland where it was a strategic goal of NATO and Poles were given an economic boost by Eurocrats from the start to disrupt the bloc quickly (see also Slovenia in Yugo), but when I think about the USSR's case it still gives me pause. It makes me think of this part in Perry Anderson's Russia piece:

In early 2012 Gleb Pavlovsky explained: ‘Putin is a Soviet figure who understood the coming of capitalism in a Soviet way. We were all taught that capitalism is a kingdom of demagogues, behind whom stands big money, and a military machine which aspires to control the world. It’s a very clear, simple picture and I think that Putin had this in his head, not as an official ideology but as a form of common sense. That is, of course, we were idiots; we tried to build a fair society when we should have been making money. For if we had made more money than the western capitalists then we could have bought them up. Or we could have created a weapon which they didn’t possess. So that’s it. It was a game we lost because we didn’t do several simple things: we didn’t create our own class of capitalists, we didn’t give the kind of predators described to us a chance to appear and devour their predators. These were Putin’s thoughts and I don’t think they’ve changed significantly since.’

The oligarchs created under Yeltsin had not understood their ultima ratio, and with Yukos had to be taught it. But there was no question of the need for their species. Vladislav Surkov, a flashier consigliere, told a reporter in 2011 that Putin realized any general dispossession of the oligarchs was impossible because there were not enough capable entrepreneurs to replace them. The pool of businessmen was ‘very thin and very precious . . . they are the bearers of capital, of intellect, of technologies’. So it followed that ‘the oil men are no less important than the oil; the state has to make the most of both’. In this economic syntax, the higher subject is the last.

#13356
Blum's still kickin' http://williamblum.org/aer/read/143
#13357

chickeon posted:

Blum's still kickin' http://williamblum.org/aer/read/143



the profit motive is just one expression of the law of value, and i think the law of value can never be fully abolished. it will just find expression in other ways, whether that's labour vouchers or social disapproval at taking too much from the communal stockpile.

#13358

EmanuelaBrolandi posted:

I was thinking the other day I havent read enough of Engels besides the more "philosophical" shit they have you read in liberal arts classes, the n*ggerish jew letters, and select part of anti-Durhing(sp?). What are the essential engels readings?



As stated above, read origin of the family, its fuckin great. Make sure you read Eleanor Burke Leacock's intro though. I may have recommended it here before but she's a red anthropologist that largely backs up Engels claims with contemporary data

#13359
nice http://twitter.com/EIiotHiggins
#13360
Reading The Hapsburg Monarchy 1867-1914 by Arthur J. May. An older study, but it successfully avoids the hoary cliche that that the multi-ethnic empire was doomed because of endogenous tribal strife among the rival nationalities.