getfiscal posted:

i'm reading a few books about campaign strategy and it helps reinforce how little campaigns care about your individual vote really. they are dealing in terms of thousands.

That's why I'm phonebanking

marimite posted:

Red_Canadian posted:

I kind of disagree with all the Bernie hate. I mean, guy's been a principled social democrat for his entire political career. His voting record is pretty decent, and he's not even a dumb liberal who votes to take guns from the workers.
Say he wins. Either things get better, or worse (or the same). Things get better, bam, guy who said he's socialist made things better, socialism looks better, people get more leftist, overton window goes further left. Things get worse, people who were committed to him because they thought he was a leftist feel betrayed, maybe they think that electoral politics is bullshit, since even a socialist can't make things better in the system, then it's time to bern() it all down!
I mean, I get it. Electoral politics is a bourgeois tool, real change is going to require more grassroots action. Ignoring that's exactly the position that Bernie is taking, at least a guy who says he's a democratic socialist would probably allow a bit more agitating then a republican.
TL;DR: Bernie's not perfect, but who else has a plan to take the reins of power within in the next year that's a better choice? Cause somebody's going to have it. If a socialist revolution starts before the election in the U.S, yeah, I'm going to support them over Bernie. Till then?

I guess I'll respond because I made the mistake of taking what might seems to be this view He's not a principled social democrat. Or a social democrat. Yes, he is a dumb liberal that votes to take guns away from workers. The overton window is ridiculous, please never mention it again. Again, the gun control issue look at this really racist shit he said:



There is nothing good about bernie. I was just saying that we shouldn't pretend we have a choice when it comes to these things and that I don't see anything blameworthy in trying to put a few more seconds on the fuggen doom clock by voting for the slightly less nazi guy. amerikkka has plans to destroy the middle east no matter what, but it might make things a little bit slower. or maybe not but even then calling for a boycott, instead of say, just focusing on other issues seems ridiculous.

actually i think you will find that people who shoot each other in chicago are not "workers" in any traditional sense of the term.

aerdil posted:

bernie sanders: pro-imperialist, pro-israel, pro-white supremacy, but his tepid occupy wall street-style rhetoric makes him the rhizzone candidate of choice. god speed old man bern may u bomb many hospitals in the name of freedom.

his seinfeld gimmick was the highlight of LF

Red_Canadian posted:

aerdil posted:

Red_Canadian posted:

Although I appreciate you giving me an out, it's unfortunately mine. Mind summing up all the problems with him so I can correct my opinions?

sure. *clears throat* go back to gbs *grabs you by the shoulders and begins shaking you uncontrollably* GO BACK TO GBS *breaks down into tears*

Haha, have you read that place lately? The whole forum is going down after they shut down LF, it's just a slow death. I'm serious man, tell me why I'm wrong, and I'll change my opinion. He's a supporter of Israel, which sucks, but A: he's technically jewish, so that's kind of hard to get over for him and B: He's running for the United States president, so it's not like he can be all "the bombing starts in 5 minutes" anyways, the lobby is too powerful in the Senate and House.

i havent read anything other posts itt but id like to point out that this argument's logic structure can be used to advocate voting for literally anyone as President. i dont know how you manage to say something without saying really anything. quite a gift.

Red_Canadian posted:

I guess I'll respond because I made the mistake of taking what might seems to be this view He's not a principled social democrat. Or a social democrat. Yes, he is a dumb liberal that votes to take guns away from workers. The overton window is ridiculous, please never mention it again. Again, the gun control issue look at this really racist shit he said:



There is nothing good about bernie. I was just saying that we shouldn't pretend we have a choice when it comes to these things and that I don't see anything blameworthy in trying to put a few more seconds on the fuggen doom clock by voting for the slightly less nazi guy. amerikkka has plans to destroy the middle east no matter what, but it might make things a little bit slower. or maybe not but even then calling for a boycott, instead of say, just focusing on other issues seems ridiculous.

While I'd admit that that quote is kind of dogwhistley, do you really think the vast majority of Chicagoans with guns are hunting often? Bernie did take part in the Civil Rights movement, so I don't how you can say he's anywhere near as racist as Trump. I mean, hell, this thread's about how Trump's a good candidate despite his racism, couldn't Bernie be the same?
As for the principles, guy seems to have a pretty good record in the Senate. Guy set up a punk rec centre when he was a mayor in Burlington.
Guy's not perfect, but who is? Who is a better candidate? Hilary? That O'malley guy who had carcetti from the wire based on him? Any republican?
Let me stress this again. He's the best of a bad group, I would rather vote for Zombie Lenin, but since he's not running, shouldn't I advocate for someone? At the end of the day, as a citizen of the US' hat, I'd rather someone half-decent than someone totally terrible.

seems to have a pretty good vote record in the senate for voting in favor of every war since the 90s while ostensibly opposing them, i agree. though you might want to make sure youre not saying someone who has a black friend cant be racist, cuz thats the only way this 'i did something 50 years ago and fuck today' horseshit that sanders fans keep vomiting scans to your average reader.

Edited by Urbandale (Oct. 6, 2015 00:07:34)

Red_Canadian posted:

It seems I've been misled, I thought Sanders voted against the Iraq war resolution? I've checked a few different sources, and they all say different things. So which is it? If he voted for it, I agree, he's an imperialist, and if not, he's anti-imperialist. I've seen speeches where he's arguing against it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p35NmUnMsY
Alright, I've got this.
http://www.ontheissues.org/house/Bernie_Sanders.htm

Some highlights as far as I can see:
WAR AND PEACE
Voted NO on declaring Iraq part of War on Terror with no exit date. (Jun 2006)
Voted NO on approving removal of Saddam & valiant service of US troops. (Mar 2004)
Voted NO on authorizing military force in Iraq. (Oct 2002)
Voted YES on disallowing the invasion of Kosovo. (May 1999)
TAXES
Voted YES on increasing tax rate for people earning over $1 million. (Mar 2008)
Voted NO on making the Bush tax cuts permanent. (Apr 2002)
Voted NO on $99 B economic stimulus: capital gains & income tax cuts. (Oct 2001)
Voted NO on Tax cut package of $958 B over 10 years. (May 2001)
Voted NO on eliminating the Estate Tax ("death tax"). (Apr 2001)
Voted NO on eliminating the "marriage penalty". (Jul 2000)
Voted NO on $46 billion in tax cuts for small business. (Mar 2000)
WORKERS RIGHTS
Voted YES on extending unemployment benefits from 39 weeks to 59 weeks. (Nov 2008)
Voted YES on overriding presidential veto of Farm Bill. (Jun 2008)
Voted NO on terminating legal challenges to English-only job rules. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on limiting farm subsidies to people earning under $750,000. (Dec 2007)
Voted YES on restricting employer interference in union organizing. (Jun 2007)
Voted YES on increasing minimum wage to $7.25. (Feb 2007)
Voted NO on end offshore tax havens and promote small business. (Oct 2004)

This post is long enough. But it doesn't look to me like his voting record's that shitty? Yeah, voting for Kosovo and Afghanistan are pretty shitty, but maybe that's what his constituents wanted? Besides both of those had a UN resolution, so it's not like it was completely imperialist. Unless you think the UN is overwhelmingly imperialist? Kind of hard to explain all those votes condemning Israel then.

as i said, yeah he argues against it, but that doesnt really mean shit does it? i mean, if you really think the dismantling of Yugoslavia, destruction of Libya, Somalia, Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq were so terrible, why vote in favor of funding said occupations?

As far as the war being what his constituents wanted you can fuck right off to be honest. theres an argument to be had about not violating principals, though its obvious sanders doesnt really give a shit about that one, and neither do his supporters. so, at the end of the day i think the reasonable point to make is that he invited air force manufacturers to his state. i suppose after doing so it would be quite a lot easier to make the cynical argument that he was 'dragged into the war' by his constituents, wouldnt it?