Panopticon posted:

i think the missing people thing is a reduction in population growth ie people not being born rather than people dying. that's how the bodycount for mao's gweat leap is calculated as far as i know. although stalin's great purge is based on cheka documentation? dude sure had a lot of people killed

this is almost right fwiw

Urbandale posted:

economic dislocation from the agricultural collectivization.

the holocaust was a series of train accidents and shower malfunctions

swirlsofhistory posted:

getfiscal posted:

i think if you're in junior high it's probably a good idea to hold a little trial about whether or not stalin was good overall as a person. soon after that it's probably good to move on from ideas of "supporting" people instead of talking about specific problems you want to avoid in future.

We did that and I played Bukharin as witness for the prosecution. Jury decision: Stalin bad.

... meaning you renamed moscow to stalinabad or....

babyhueypnewton posted:

littlegreenpills posted:

a famine that killed 7 million people in the US would probably have been noticed at the time. some dumb ass russian pseudo academic doing redarted projections of population statistics in the 1930s and then handwaving about "missing people" doesn't prove anything. however, when bobby conquest and the other guy use the exact same methodology to reveal holodomors etc whell THAT'S DIFFERENT

why do you think it wasn't noticed? thats why its called the great depression...

it featured less actual corpses and more people wandering around being miserable. if u think this absolves capitalism ur a loony

littlegreenpills posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

littlegreenpills posted:

a famine that killed 7 million people in the US would probably have been noticed at the time. some dumb ass russian pseudo academic doing redarted projections of population statistics in the 1930s and then handwaving about "missing people" doesn't prove anything. however, when bobby conquest and the other guy use the exact same methodology to reveal holodomors etc whell THAT'S DIFFERENT

why do you think it wasn't noticed? thats why its called the great depression...

it featured less actual corpses and more people wandering around being miserable. if u think this absolves capitalism ur a loony

but thats just something you made up. what really happened was the great depression overwhelmingly affected black people who were given no welfare, government aid, nor union representation. their deaths are basically invisible to racist people though

Urbandale posted:

re: ussr deaths, 4 million died in ww1 and 9.7 million died during the civil war. economic dislocation from the agricultural collectivization and ukrainian dust bowl caused between 4-9 million. 25-30 million people died due to the german invasion. 3 million went into the GULAG system total, in which 826,000 people died.

of these, stalin can really only be effectively blamed for the last.

you can also blame him/communism for the terribly managed agricultural collectivization

babyhueypnewton posted:

littlegreenpills posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

littlegreenpills posted:

a famine that killed 7 million people in the US would probably have been noticed at the time. some dumb ass russian pseudo academic doing redarted projections of population statistics in the 1930s and then handwaving about "missing people" doesn't prove anything. however, when bobby conquest and the other guy use the exact same methodology to reveal holodomors etc whell THAT'S DIFFERENT

why do you think it wasn't noticed? thats why its called the great depression...

it featured less actual corpses and more people wandering around being miserable. if u think this absolves capitalism ur a loony

but thats just something you made up. what really happened was the great depression overwhelmingly affected black people who were given no welfare, government aid, nor union representation. their deaths are basically invisible to racist people though

where r tha boens

babyhueypnewton posted:

littlegreenpills posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

littlegreenpills posted:

a famine that killed 7 million people in the US would probably have been noticed at the time. some dumb ass russian pseudo academic doing redarted projections of population statistics in the 1930s and then handwaving about "missing people" doesn't prove anything. however, when bobby conquest and the other guy use the exact same methodology to reveal holodomors etc whell THAT'S DIFFERENT

why do you think it wasn't noticed? thats why its called the great depression...

it featured less actual corpses and more people wandering around being miserable. if u think this absolves capitalism ur a loony



but thats just something you made up. what really happened was the great depression overwhelmingly affected black people who were given no welfare, government aid, nor union representation. their deaths are basically invisible to racist people though

additionally, its important to note that bureaucratic population documentation was not nearly as thorough back then, especially in rural areas. there are a whole lot of families that suffered deaths due to easily preventable disease and malnutrition, had young children that starved to death, went bush and were never heard from again etc, and no one ever knew outside of maybe their neighbors or a local church registry that may not have ever reported to the government due to mass abandonment. marginalized populations were of course far more likely to go unreported, in canada the federal government had already been deliberately starving reservations to death for years and when the depression made an already intolerable situation worse no one usually bothered to count the bodies. a lot of these stories do however survive in the oral history of survivors, at least for now. people remember.

let's also not forget that the depression was also the era of mass displacement and detainment of Japanese canadians into internment camps, documented evidence of publicly available meeting minutes shows that municipalities like Vancouver had been talking about doing it well before the depression and the conflict with Japan even began, it just gave them a convenient excuse to do what they'd always wanted.

Urbandale posted:

NoFreeWill posted:

Urbandale posted:

re: ussr deaths, 4 million died in ww1 and 9.7 million died during the civil war. economic dislocation from the agricultural collectivization and ukrainian dust bowl caused between 4-9 million. 25-30 million people died due to the german invasion. 3 million went into the GULAG system total, in which 826,000 people died.

of these, stalin can really only be effectively blamed for the last.

you can also blame him/communism for the terribly managed agricultural collectivization

which policies, specifically

requisition of seed grain

getfiscal posted:

Urbandale posted:

economic dislocation from the agricultural collectivization.

the holocaust was a series of train accidents and shower malfunctions

Panopticon posted:

requisition of seed grain is how you start a famine, not stop one

this doesnt address my comment or the obvious follow-up that ukraine grew nearly all the food for the entire subcontinent, meaning that a capital strike there, which was already occurring before the famine, would have had way more drastic effects if requisitions hadn't occurred.

dont think youre really thinking about your comments here

MarxUltor posted:

Urbandale posted:

requisition of grain is bad during a famine? how is one supposed to feed the rest of the populace and keep the rich from hoarding their resources, which they did then and do now in venezuela?

well one way to prevent that could be to kill the rich. just a theory though

no dont attack the rich. starve ethnic ukranians specifically for some reason.

Urbandale posted:

Panopticon posted:

requisition of seed grain is how you start a famine, not stop one

this doesnt address my comment or the obvious follow-up that ukraine grew nearly all the food for the entire subcontinent, meaning that a capital strike there, which was already occurring before the famine, would have had way more drastic effects if requisitions hadn't occurred.

dont think youre really thinking about your comments here

i think it's more likely the soviet officials in charge of quotas took the seed grain and ruined future harvests than a strike being organised by millions of peasants. any opposition to the authorities was probably because the peasants were having their agricultural expertise ignored by bureaucrats with no personal experience at farming.

MarxUltor posted:

Urbandale posted:

requisition of grain is bad during a famine? how is one supposed to feed the rest of the populace and keep the rich from hoarding their resources, which they did then and do now in venezuela?

well one way to prevent that could be to kill the rich. just a theory though

i guess people like zinoviev and kamenev could be thought of as "the rich" if you subscribe to the "new class" theory of the communist party

Edited by Panopticon (Sept. 10, 2015 02:44:43)