but you can see where this is going. someone says something is human nature, commies must deny that such a thing exists and respond that it is the result of mutable social arrangements, namely capitalism. the obvious problem is that the destruction of nature existed both outside of capitalism and prior to it, including by hundreds of thousands of years. commies response to this is meager whimpering about how this is happening now, which is true but also disputes the thesis that it is not something inherent to humanity.
discussion topics:
1. is the commie's naivety about this species of half-sapient psychotic apes charming or dangerous?
2. primitive man hunted the great megafauna to extinction for meat and skins. modern man destroys the planet for totally sickhouse comforts and technology which are way better than gamey mastodon chunks. doesn't this mean capitalism is better than anarcho-primitivism?
3. je suis gay?
http://monthlyreview.org/2015/09/01/when-did-the-anthropocene-beginand-why-does-it-matter/
tldr: theorists position the anthropocene at an earlier date of human civilization are invariably right-wing and do so to mitigate the influence of modern capitalism on the world
It “gradualizes” the new epoch so that it is no longer a rupture due principally to the burning of fossil fuels but a creeping phenomenon due to the incremental spread of human influence over the landscape. This misconstrues the suddenness, severity, duration and irreversibility of the Anthropocene leading to a serious underestimation and mischaracterization of the kind of human response necessary to slow its onset and ameliorate its impacts.
while all actual evidence points to an extraordinary exponential impact of humans in the environment beginning in the 1950s.
Over the past 50 years, humans have changed the world’s ecosystems more rapidly and extensively than in any other comparable period in human history. The Earth is in its sixth great extinction event, with rates of species loss growing rapidly for both terrestrial and marine ecosystems. The atmospheric concentrations of several important greenhouse gases have increased substantially, and the Earth is warming rapidly. More nitrogen is now converted from the atmosphere into reactive forms by fertilizer production and fossil fuel combustion than by all of the natural processes in terrestrial ecosystems put together.
Edited by aerdil ()
littlegreenpills posted:the soviet union did do things like dry the aral sea up and contaminate agricultural land in uzbekhistan with heavy metals. that said restricting private ownership of motor vehicles and private commodity consumption in general probably means they came out ahead on the green front
on the other hand that stuff happened after the krushchev thaw while stalin was a huge supporter of environmental projects including a massive re-forestation project. makes u think
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transformation_of_Nature
Jason W. Moore is currently the best writer on capitalism and ecology. One of his articles (it should be in the book) talks extensively about how early capitalist arrangements (plantation slavery) created a unique relationship between production, labor, environment, and frontier that is central to capitalism today.
NoFreeWill posted:Jason W. Moore is currently the best writer on capitalism and ecology
john bellamy foster imo
theres a good economics paper on how a tribe that maximizes ecological destruction thru having lots of babies will always outcompete neighboring peaceful hippie tribes, but you don't need a paper to understand that. there might be an inflection point sometime in the next centuries catastrophes, though, where societies that survive are ones that are both warrior societies and more ecologically sustainable ones. but those societies might look more like feudalism or nomadic raiding gangs then peaceful ecovillages.
c_man posted:.custom287129{}NoFreeWill posted:Jason W. Moore is currently the best writer on capitalism and ecology
john bellamy foster imo
he's also cool but not as cool, imo. red and green make a hideous shade of brown (poop) when mixed.
We've been using coal power on a large scale since the late 1800s, and we have something like 400 years of coal left to burn at today's rate. So, we're unleashing the carbon in coal about a million times faster than it was stored. Which makes me feel like any form of social order that isn't rooted in thermodynamics is useless.
Edited by swampman ()
littlegreenpills posted:the soviet union did do things like dry the aral sea up and contaminate agricultural land in uzbekhistan with heavy metals. that said restricting private ownership of motor vehicles and private commodity consumption in general probably means they came out ahead on the green front
You may find this interesting:
Soviet ecology presents us with an extraordinary set of historical ironies. On the one hand, the USSR in the 1930s and ’40s violently purged many of its leading ecological thinkers and seriously degraded its environment in the quest for rapid industrial expansion. The end result has often been described as a kind of “ecocide,” symbolized by the Chernobyl nuclear accident, the assault on Lake Baikal, and the drying up of the Aral Sea, as well as extremely high levels of air and water pollution.On the other hand, the Soviet Union developed some of the world’s most dialectical contributions to ecology, revolutionizing science in fields such as climatology, while also introducing pioneering forms of conservation. Aside from its famous zapovedniki, or nature reserves for scientific research, it sought to preserve and even to expand its forests. As environmental historian Stephen Brain observes, it established “levels of protection unparalleled anywhere in the world.” Beginning in the 1960s the Soviet Union increasingly instituted environmental reforms, and in the 1980s was the site of what has been called an “ecological revolution.” A growing recognition of this more complex reality has led scholars in recent years to criticize the “ecocide” description of Soviet environmental history as too simplistic.
From the 1960s on, Soviet ecological thought grew rapidly together with the environmental movement, which was led primarily by scientists. In the 1970s and ’80s this evolved into a mass movement, leading to the emergence in the USSR of the largest conservation organization in the world. These developments resulted in substantial changes in the society. For example, between 1980 and 1990 air pollutants from stationary sources fell by over 23 percent.
More significant from today’s standpoint was the role the Soviet Union played from the late 1950s on in the development of global ecology. Soviet climatologists discovered and alerted the world to the acceleration of global climate change; developed the major early climate change models; demonstrated the extent to which the melting of polar ice could create a positive feedback, speeding up global warming; pioneered paleoclimatic analysis; constructed a new approach to global ecology as a distinct field based on the analysis of the biosphere; originated the nuclear winter theory; and probably did the most early on in exploring the natural-social dialectic underlying changes in the earth system.
http://monthlyreview.org/2015/06/01/late-soviet-ecology-and-the-planetary-crisis/
swampman posted:Even the concept of the "anthropocene" as a geologic era is hopelessly euphemistic, because what is happening is an instantaneous disaster on the geologic timescale, not a period of steady change
i think the K-T event also occurred over a pretty short timescale m8
NoFreeWill posted:there might be an inflection point sometime in the next centuries catastrophes, though, where societies that survive are ones that are both warrior societies and more ecologically sustainable ones. but those societies might look more like feudalism or nomadic raiding gangs then peaceful ecovillages.
So just to be clear, do you actually want this hypothetical hokey Mad Max future world you anachronistically insist on calling 'feudalism' coming about or....?
RedMaistre posted:NoFreeWill posted:
there might be an inflection point sometime in the next centuries catastrophes, though, where societies that survive are ones that are both warrior societies and more ecologically sustainable ones. but those societies might look more like feudalism or nomadic raiding gangs then peaceful ecovillages.
So just to be clear, do you actually want this hypothetical hokey Mad Max future world you anachronistically insist on calling 'feudalism' coming about or....?
Given how frequently he brings it up, and insists on calling it feudalism despite being corrected multiple times, I'm pretty sure he's fixated on a goofy fantasy longing for an incredibly specific future that will never exist.
I'm also pretty sure that he should stop posting.
clearly me and lykourgos will be the great lords in the castle, while people like you will be yoked in the fields farming and reproducing peasant wenches we can claim for primae noctis. and i'm doing everything i can to bring it about (eg training with a sword on weekends, driving a hummer, etc.)
I'm pretty sure he's fixated on a goofy fantasy longing for an incredibly specific future that will never exist.
I thought this was what Communism was about?
aerdil posted:well-timed thread considering there was a MR article published this month to answer all ur questions about the commie position:
http://monthlyreview.org/2015/09/01/when-did-the-anthropocene-beginand-why-does-it-matter/
tldr: theorists position the anthropocene at an earlier date of human civilization are invariably right-wing and do so to mitigate the influence of modern capitalism on the world
and marxolords who want to position it after 1950, 1800, or whatever do so specifically because they want to present it as an exceptional phenomenon instead of an exceptionally bad period of the same ongoing phenomenon.
Hope you are doing well with your sword lessons.
NoFreeWill posted:i do buy that argument from the left that anthropocene is not a radical enough conception, ie ancient chinese rice farming changing the atmosphere is obviously the start of something, but the key factor is the population and pollution explosion of the industrial revolution. but I also think that maximizing energy use and therefore ecological destruction is, while not inherent in human social arrangements (see aboriginal cultures that still survive, somewhat), the superior arrangement for conquering the globe (see the successes of colonialism and imperialism) as we can see in a world where capitalism has filled the globe with its peoples like a plague.
theres a good economics paper on how a tribe that maximizes ecological destruction thru having lots of babies will always outcompete neighboring peaceful hippie tribes, but you don't need a paper to understand that. there might be an inflection point sometime in the next centuries catastrophes, though, where societies that survive are ones that are both warrior societies and more ecologically sustainable ones. but those societies might look more like feudalism or nomadic raiding gangs then peaceful ecovillages.
cool theory you came up with in a cloud of weed smoke. as you point out, there's a great future for weed smoke theories using "game theory" to trivialize complex socio-historical relations in bourgeois scholarship
NoFreeWill posted:i don't enjoy smoking weed
mods???
c_man posted:john bellamy foster imo
pretty cool guy... for a trot
Urbandale posted:what are you gonna do when you hit 13
keep grinding til he hits max level