#1
so there's an idea floating around in some pop-sci journals that we are entering the "Anthropocene," a new epoch of geological time defined by human effects on the climate and environment. commies deny the collective responsibility of humanity on this, and instead blame capitalism. and they make a couple of good points, pointing out for example that most of the real world damage done is not evenly committed by all people and therefore assigning blame equally is inaccurate.

but you can see where this is going. someone says something is human nature, commies must deny that such a thing exists and respond that it is the result of mutable social arrangements, namely capitalism. the obvious problem is that the destruction of nature existed both outside of capitalism and prior to it, including by hundreds of thousands of years. commies response to this is meager whimpering about how this is happening now, which is true but also disputes the thesis that it is not something inherent to humanity.

discussion topics:

1. is the commie's naivety about this species of half-sapient psychotic apes charming or dangerous?
2. primitive man hunted the great megafauna to extinction for meat and skins. modern man destroys the planet for totally sickhouse comforts and technology which are way better than gamey mastodon chunks. doesn't this mean capitalism is better than anarcho-primitivism?
3. je suis gay?
#2
"anthroposcene" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "human nature" beyond the fact that human are much more able than other types of life to change their environment through their labor by continually revolutionizing their means of production (which are what is used to change the environment in the first place) by making them the objects of labor. this is basically right out of marx.
#3
the particular historical status of how exactly the environment is subsumed by human production depends on the mode of production. capitalist production produces waste which accumulates in the environment because the reintegration of "waste" into the reproduction of society is deprioritized under capitalist production.
#4
the soviet union did do things like dry the aral sea up and contaminate agricultural land in uzbekhistan with heavy metals. that said restricting private ownership of motor vehicles and private commodity consumption in general probably means they came out ahead on the green front
#5
well-timed thread considering there was a MR article published this month to answer all ur questions about the commie position:

http://monthlyreview.org/2015/09/01/when-did-the-anthropocene-beginand-why-does-it-matter/

tldr: theorists position the anthropocene at an earlier date of human civilization are invariably right-wing and do so to mitigate the influence of modern capitalism on the world

It “gradualizes” the new epoch so that it is no longer a rupture due principally to the burning of fossil fuels but a creeping phenomenon due to the incremental spread of human influence over the landscape. This misconstrues the suddenness, severity, duration and irreversibility of the Anthropocene leading to a serious underestimation and mischaracterization of the kind of human response necessary to slow its onset and ameliorate its impacts.



while all actual evidence points to an extraordinary exponential impact of humans in the environment beginning in the 1950s.

Over the past 50 years, humans have changed the world’s ecosystems more rapidly and extensively than in any other comparable period in human history. The Earth is in its sixth great extinction event, with rates of species loss growing rapidly for both terrestrial and marine ecosystems. The atmospheric concentrations of several important greenhouse gases have increased substantially, and the Earth is warming rapidly. More nitrogen is now converted from the atmosphere into reactive forms by fertilizer production and fossil fuel combustion than by all of the natural processes in terrestrial ecosystems put together.

Edited by aerdil ()

#6
But I thought reproduction was bad? Sexhaver
#7

littlegreenpills posted:

the soviet union did do things like dry the aral sea up and contaminate agricultural land in uzbekhistan with heavy metals. that said restricting private ownership of motor vehicles and private commodity consumption in general probably means they came out ahead on the green front



on the other hand that stuff happened after the krushchev thaw while stalin was a huge supporter of environmental projects including a massive re-forestation project. makes u think

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transformation_of_Nature

#8
http://www.versobooks.com/books/1924-capitalism-in-the-web-of-life

Jason W. Moore is currently the best writer on capitalism and ecology. One of his articles (it should be in the book) talks extensively about how early capitalist arrangements (plantation slavery) created a unique relationship between production, labor, environment, and frontier that is central to capitalism today.
#9

NoFreeWill posted:

Jason W. Moore is currently the best writer on capitalism and ecology


john bellamy foster imo

#10
i do buy that argument from the left that anthropocene is not a radical enough conception, ie ancient chinese rice farming changing the atmosphere is obviously the start of something, but the key factor is the population and pollution explosion of the industrial revolution. but I also think that maximizing energy use and therefore ecological destruction is, while not inherent in human social arrangements (see aboriginal cultures that still survive, somewhat), the superior arrangement for conquering the globe (see the successes of colonialism and imperialism) as we can see in a world where capitalism has filled the globe with its peoples like a plague.

theres a good economics paper on how a tribe that maximizes ecological destruction thru having lots of babies will always outcompete neighboring peaceful hippie tribes, but you don't need a paper to understand that. there might be an inflection point sometime in the next centuries catastrophes, though, where societies that survive are ones that are both warrior societies and more ecologically sustainable ones. but those societies might look more like feudalism or nomadic raiding gangs then peaceful ecovillages.
#11

c_man posted:

.custom287129{}NoFreeWill posted:Jason W. Moore is currently the best writer on capitalism and ecology
john bellamy foster imo


he's also cool but not as cool, imo. red and green make a hideous shade of brown (poop) when mixed.

#12
Wind turbines and Internet of things will consume all copper and kill everyone
#13
the cool thing about 'alternative' energy is that it requires a massive industrial infrastructure run off fossil fuels as well as lots of conflict/rare earth minerals to create at the current price.
#14
Even the concept of the "anthropocene" as a geologic era is hopelessly euphemistic, because what is happening is an instantaneous disaster on the geologic timescale, not a period of steady change. Its name invites comparison to things like the Oxygen Catastrophe which is similar in scale and importance but happened way slower. To understand the forces being unleashed you have to understand how they were created in the first place. Most coal for example was laid down over a period of seven hundred million years, via the gradual mass extinction of a lignin-based global forest. That's 20% of the total time that life has existed on earth. Since nothing during the Carboniferous could digest lignin, which takes thousands of years to decay on its own, dead forests piled up for eons, continually buried and compressed.

We've been using coal power on a large scale since the late 1800s, and we have something like 400 years of coal left to burn at today's rate. So, we're unleashing the carbon in coal about a million times faster than it was stored. Which makes me feel like any form of social order that isn't rooted in thermodynamics is useless.

Edited by swampman ()

#15

littlegreenpills posted:

the soviet union did do things like dry the aral sea up and contaminate agricultural land in uzbekhistan with heavy metals. that said restricting private ownership of motor vehicles and private commodity consumption in general probably means they came out ahead on the green front



You may find this interesting:

Soviet ecology presents us with an extraordinary set of historical ironies. On the one hand, the USSR in the 1930s and ’40s violently purged many of its leading ecological thinkers and seriously degraded its environment in the quest for rapid industrial expansion. The end result has often been described as a kind of “ecocide,” symbolized by the Chernobyl nuclear accident, the assault on Lake Baikal, and the drying up of the Aral Sea, as well as extremely high levels of air and water pollution.On the other hand, the Soviet Union developed some of the world’s most dialectical contributions to ecology, revolutionizing science in fields such as climatology, while also introducing pioneering forms of conservation. Aside from its famous zapovedniki, or nature reserves for scientific research, it sought to preserve and even to expand its forests. As environmental historian Stephen Brain observes, it established “levels of protection unparalleled anywhere in the world.” Beginning in the 1960s the Soviet Union increasingly instituted environmental reforms, and in the 1980s was the site of what has been called an “ecological revolution.” A growing recognition of this more complex reality has led scholars in recent years to criticize the “ecocide” description of Soviet environmental history as too simplistic.

From the 1960s on, Soviet ecological thought grew rapidly together with the environmental movement, which was led primarily by scientists. In the 1970s and ’80s this evolved into a mass movement, leading to the emergence in the USSR of the largest conservation organization in the world. These developments resulted in substantial changes in the society. For example, between 1980 and 1990 air pollutants from stationary sources fell by over 23 percent.
More significant from today’s standpoint was the role the Soviet Union played from the late 1950s on in the development of global ecology. Soviet climatologists discovered and alerted the world to the acceleration of global climate change; developed the major early climate change models; demonstrated the extent to which the melting of polar ice could create a positive feedback, speeding up global warming; pioneered paleoclimatic analysis; constructed a new approach to global ecology as a distinct field based on the analysis of the biosphere; originated the nuclear winter theory; and probably did the most early on in exploring the natural-social dialectic underlying changes in the earth system.

http://monthlyreview.org/2015/06/01/late-soviet-ecology-and-the-planetary-crisis/

#16

swampman posted:

Even the concept of the "anthropocene" as a geologic era is hopelessly euphemistic, because what is happening is an instantaneous disaster on the geologic timescale, not a period of steady change



i think the K-T event also occurred over a pretty short timescale m8

#17

NoFreeWill posted:

there might be an inflection point sometime in the next centuries catastrophes, though, where societies that survive are ones that are both warrior societies and more ecologically sustainable ones. but those societies might look more like feudalism or nomadic raiding gangs then peaceful ecovillages.



So just to be clear, do you actually want this hypothetical hokey Mad Max future world you anachronistically insist on calling 'feudalism' coming about or....?

#18

RedMaistre posted:

NoFreeWill posted:

there might be an inflection point sometime in the next centuries catastrophes, though, where societies that survive are ones that are both warrior societies and more ecologically sustainable ones. but those societies might look more like feudalism or nomadic raiding gangs then peaceful ecovillages.



So just to be clear, do you actually want this hypothetical hokey Mad Max future world you anachronistically insist on calling 'feudalism' coming about or....?


Given how frequently he brings it up, and insists on calling it feudalism despite being corrected multiple times, I'm pretty sure he's fixated on a goofy fantasy longing for an incredibly specific future that will never exist.

I'm also pretty sure that he should stop posting.

#19
well obviously it won't resemble feudalism exactly, but if society survives, going back down the energy scale will require different systems of government, ie those that flourish in a suite of technologies that are very different from those in use today. i'm not sure why you think it's hokey to believe that the coming catastrophe will require very different forms of social organization.

clearly me and lykourgos will be the great lords in the castle, while people like you will be yoked in the fields farming and reproducing peasant wenches we can claim for primae noctis. and i'm doing everything i can to bring it about (eg training with a sword on weekends, driving a hummer, etc.)
#20

I'm pretty sure he's fixated on a goofy fantasy longing for an incredibly specific future that will never exist.



I thought this was what Communism was about?

#21
I think the future is going to be just terrible and I'm glad I'll be dead before the worst of it. but i'm not sure it's possible to be a communist without reckoning with global changes ie trying to ensure a better future than the current nosedive trajectory. i'm just presenting a couple of scenarios for possible futures, not claiming that I know exactly what will happen. extinction i think is 50/50. labor intense farming implies control of those laborers... probably through force.
#22

aerdil posted:

well-timed thread considering there was a MR article published this month to answer all ur questions about the commie position:

http://monthlyreview.org/2015/09/01/when-did-the-anthropocene-beginand-why-does-it-matter/

tldr: theorists position the anthropocene at an earlier date of human civilization are invariably right-wing and do so to mitigate the influence of modern capitalism on the world



and marxolords who want to position it after 1950, 1800, or whatever do so specifically because they want to present it as an exceptional phenomenon instead of an exceptionally bad period of the same ongoing phenomenon.

#23
that's because civilization is the problem, capitalism is just an exceptionally bad form of civilization. err, wait, animals are the problem, humans are just an exceptionally bad form of animals. um, matter energy and entropy is the problem, life is a metastable local entropy minimizing global entropy maximizing exceptionally bad form of matter.
#24
Actually, JEWS are to blame for everything
#25
i think this discussion and concept are thomas friedman levels of stupid
#26
Goatstein, didn't you used to constantly argue against the idea that the language used to define a concept has an effect on the real world effects of that concept? Who cares if we call it afropiscine or whatever... Calm down man.
#27
btw it wasn't pop-sci mags it was actually a bunch of respected scientists who got together and declared it. it's real and we're living in it lol. mostly it's a good way of using fancy jargon to let people know that global warming is real
#28
#29
Sorry, that was a rather rude question---

Hope you are doing well with your sword lessons.
#30
That climate change and more labor intensive agriculture will cause alterations in the corresponding superstructure is clear enough-that this means lords in Gothic castles or nomadic raiding groups is a different matter entirely.
#31
ahem, solar-powered Gothic-revival fortresses
#32
also the part about sword lessons was a joke, i don't think collapse is that likely in my lifetime. and we've got enough guns and ammo to last a hundred years or something + home blacksmithing/salvage
#33

NoFreeWill posted:

i do buy that argument from the left that anthropocene is not a radical enough conception, ie ancient chinese rice farming changing the atmosphere is obviously the start of something, but the key factor is the population and pollution explosion of the industrial revolution. but I also think that maximizing energy use and therefore ecological destruction is, while not inherent in human social arrangements (see aboriginal cultures that still survive, somewhat), the superior arrangement for conquering the globe (see the successes of colonialism and imperialism) as we can see in a world where capitalism has filled the globe with its peoples like a plague.

theres a good economics paper on how a tribe that maximizes ecological destruction thru having lots of babies will always outcompete neighboring peaceful hippie tribes, but you don't need a paper to understand that. there might be an inflection point sometime in the next centuries catastrophes, though, where societies that survive are ones that are both warrior societies and more ecologically sustainable ones. but those societies might look more like feudalism or nomadic raiding gangs then peaceful ecovillages.



cool theory you came up with in a cloud of weed smoke. as you point out, there's a great future for weed smoke theories using "game theory" to trivialize complex socio-historical relations in bourgeois scholarship

#34
i don't enjoy smoking weed, actually. and while it trivializes complex socio-historical relations, it's also true and correct.
#35

NoFreeWill posted:

i don't enjoy smoking weed



mods???

#36

c_man posted:

john bellamy foster imo



pretty cool guy... for a trot

#37
he's a good boy
#38
i've given my oath of fealty to the archdruid...
#39
what are you gonna do when you hit 13
#40

Urbandale posted:

what are you gonna do when you hit 13



keep grinding til he hits max level