#441
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#442
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im postin' from the bowels of san francisco but mostly about my own bowels rather than maoism
#443
Online
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this thread has been cool, glad to see an old fashioned argument break out even though that voxnihili guy didnt even try to read any of the stuff crow posted and still kept making the same kinds of arguments without acknowledging the counterevidence crow had posted

but serious, mods, come on. s eriously. mods??? split thisd off into a new epic thread already
#444
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http://www.mintpressnews.com/bitcoin-may-have-its-time-in-the-sun-as-greek-banks-go-kaput/207114/
#445
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babyhueypnewton posted:

im not sure what's being argued anymore but im not sure I agree. what's wrong with maoism other than the people who are attracted to it?

edit: moved to China / USSR / mao thread

Edited by Crow ()

#446
Poronto
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syriza r going to issue scrip and its going to hyperinflate out of existence cos theyre too weenie to be cuba properly
#447
mt.real
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littlegreenpills posted:

syriza r going to issue scrip and its going to hyperinflate out of existence cos theyre too weenie to be cuba properly

surely no one is dumb enough to do that in 2015

#448
"Jpg." - Hank Hill
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imo its good that socialism collapsed in greece before they had a chance to kill millions of greek people
#449
"Jpg." - Hank Hill
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without greek people who will angrily jabber and gesticulate in Goblin with their brother while i am trying to eat a cheap pizza? an armenian? get the fuck out of here
#450
mt.real
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armenia isn't real that's just a cartography troll that got a little out of hand
#451
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le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

imo its good that socialism collapsed in greece before they had a chance to kill millions of greek people



#452
Mike Nelson here.
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#453
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- still get paid by the ussr for a few years
#454
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So here's a big wall of text I posted summing up my understanding of the Greek crisis I posted in the bad place, can anyone poke holes in it?

I can't believe how dumb some people are about this. In simplest terms, previous to SYRIZA, there were two governments which alternated. Both of these governments contributed to the corruption, encouraged the cooking of the books, and were in power when the cheap credit overinflated the economy. After the worldwide recession, investors were noticeably more wary about their lending practices, which led to a more careful analysis of the statistics, which led them to fear they might not get their money back. This leads to less credit, as well as the credit available being more expensive. So the Greek economy is hurt by this, as would most small countries'. So the IMF, Eurobank and Eurocommission say that's ok, we''ll help you out, here's some money. That money comes with conditions, such as wages coming down, less generous pensions, sale of government assets. These conditions are supposed to help Greece become financially solvent (and pay back these loans). This continues for a few years, with the troika making demands and the government in Greece implementing them (at least to the satisfaction of the creditors, who keep lending).
However, after a few years of austerity, Greece seems to be worse off then ever. Unemployment is still high, pensions have been cut leading to suicides, and the amount that Greece owes is more than ever. So the Greeks, as their democratic right, vote for a different party that says that this bleeding need not be so severe, that poor pensioners are the wrong people to go after for money, and that our creditors should be able to see that austerity isn't working.
As an aside, everyone in the thread know about this right? http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...han-we-thought/ Look at the date.
So the IMF, one of the creditors, said in 2012 that austerity can be the wrong move for governments in time of recession. So SYRIZA thinks maybe all these reforms, which seem to visibly damaged the economy, hurt plenty of poor people, and negatively effect a government long term finances. And with one of the creditors agreeing, SYRIZA thinks we might be able to get out of this negative spiral, with a bit harder negotiations. With the belief (which I believe is sincere) they run and win the election.
Immediately, international business (which was starting to return) investment drops. This always happens when people elect left governments, look at the NDP in Ontario (for a smaller example). It's not even a conspiracy really, they just go to where there is less taxes for them, less money going to pensions, and subservient governments. So the troika has to continue lending, even though private investment has gone elsewhere. SYRIZA reverses some of the more regressive reforms, provides electricity to many who couldn't afford it, and hires back some of those fired, all election promises, which do cost money.
This is my barebones analysis, can anyone point out my errors?
Anyways, the troika says this isn't good, now the economy will get worse, since austerity was working. But the IMF said austerity in times of recession is a bad idea that leads to a shrinking of the economy. So why austerity? Because it weakens a country, makes it reliant on future loans, and most of the conditions allow international business to profit, either from purchasing undervalued assets or by using it as a new source of cheap labour.
If the troika were truly acting in a manner to help the Greeks and ensure the greatest repayment of loans, they would limit austerity. Greece is screwed because it's in the Euro, and can't control the currency in the traditional way. If SYRIZA can be accused of anything, it's having the mistaken belief that the troika was truly prepared to negotiate with the best outcomes for all in mind.

Edited by Red_Canadian ()

#455
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my first criticism so far: all your text is slanted slightly to the right
#456
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That was an attempt to show the quote...though I guess I should have quoted it. And I can't revert in my edits either. The analysis, at least, doesn't slant right. (Is there a left slanting font for leftists?)
#457
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you're link is broken

also you didn't mention the role of the free trade zone greece is part of as an eu member, that means industries elsewhere in europe with better infrastructure and capital goods and therefore more efficient production can outcompete greek industries with no recourse to import tariffs. this is how germany benefits from the arrangement.
#458
Poronto
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a lot of folks will say "what about estonia" which apparently did austerity better and quicker and faster and harder and is now doing great with a mere 15% unemployment rate
#459
Online
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we need a left slanting font for leftists
#460
Online
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this ostensibly communist forum only has right slanted text. unfuckingbelievable. is neoliberal capitalism really so deeply ingrained in all of us ythat we allow this to happen even in our own failtard irony stalin forum? i've had i t. im done. im out. im not posting again unbtil we get left slanted text.
#461
Poronto
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from the perspective of the writer it is left slanted
#462
Online
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#463
Poronto
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why are you running what appears to be Word 97
#464
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Word 97 is a you need
#465
Online
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littlegreenpills posted:

why are you running what appears to be Word 97

jealous?

#466
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A little bit. Anywho, looks like the Greeks (birthplace of democracy) may have made the correct if difficult choice of OXI!
Does anyone else kind of want to go to Greece and help, and then skip off to Turkey and join up with YPG? Has there been any kind of solidarity between the two more successful leftist movements of the Mediterranean?
#467
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yes, hitler and mussolini were bros 4 life
#468
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lol
#469
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#470
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lol aannndd the eurozone finally managed to force him out http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/06/minister-no-more/
#471
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This is so weak
#472
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i wonder whether the next finance minister will be a euro-skeptic (apparently most of the other candidates besides Varoufakis were) or a toady
#473
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Clearly, this conclusion was contrary to the prevailing view among the “globalist” Left and its numerous publications all over the world. This is the Left which explicitly or implicitly takes globalization and its institutions (e.g. the EU) for granted and only aims for their improvement “from within” (we used to call this kind of “Left” reformist in the past to distinguish it from the antisystemic or anticapitalist Left). However, the strong anti-globalization movement that developed in the late 1990s, on both sides of the Atlantic, was largely an antisystemic movement, which was crushed by the combination of state violence (Seattle, Genoa etc.) and the systematic effort of the globalist Left that developed at the time, with indirect support of the mass media controlled by the Transnational Elite (i.e. the elites mainly based in the G7 countries). In fact, the role of globalist Left was crucial in eventually managing to emasculate the anti-globalization movement, from an antisystemic movement into a reformist one.The inevitable result was the demise of the entire antisystemic movement against globalization, to the great delight of Transnational Corporations, which were obviously behind this huge campaign.

The main difference between the globalist Left and the antiglobalization movement, which was not explicit at the time but became evident later on, concerns the very object of social struggle.

From The bankruptcy of Syriza and of the globalist “Left by Takis Fotopoulos
#474
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The 'official' left excitement over Syriza, not to mention Syriza own illusions, can be interpreted as being the result of a decade long process by which Seattle and the initial explosion of popular protest against the Iraq War were taken up again as conveniently purified aesthetic images within spectacle. Their substance was rejected as 'hippie', 'Stalinist', or "merely populist" and replaced with soft warmed over post-Blair social-democracy with a facade of tech Utopianism and Jacobin voluntarism that is more afraid of not being treated seriously by the epigones of predatory creditors than of failing the people who elected it.

The Zizek and to a lesser extant Badiou dominated revival of academic Marxism in the oughts played a key role in this. Not to mention the mystification of the anti-globalization/alter-mondelization movement that was effected by its would be official intellectual spokespersons, Negri and Hardt.

Edited by RedMaistre ()

#475
Online
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lol stock exchange got shut down

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/trading-halted-york-stock-exchange-154021341.html
#476
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all united airlines flights are also suddenly grounded by computer problems...
#477
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meanwhile, something like a quarter of Chinese companies have halted trading in response to the crash they're experiencing
#478
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OH WELL, vacation time for me hahahaaaaaa
#479
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personally looking forwards to the post-collapse hellscape
#480
mt.real
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the nyse thing is basically meaningless to large institutional traders (i.e. anyone with any money), trades can happen on any appropriate electronic exchange if one is down.

china is pretty fucked up though. it seems quite reasonable to expect it to go down another 20-30%. while the euro is disintegrating itself. i suppose if you were the US you would want to be pushing greece as hard as you could to take this as far as they can, as long as it wasn't actually traceable to you. and i wonder whose idea it was that everyday citizens take loans to buy chinese stocks. or how true that really is.