cars posted:imo if you take an either/or approach on the topic you ignore surplus repression and your analysis appears Basic to people willing to consider contradictions. it also evidences a lack of understanding of the concept of a gay man in bourgeois consciousness in the Western world for much of the 20th century, which associated "gay" with at best working class despair and at worst indigent planned suicide and reacted appropriately in the material world. bourgeois men who sought sex with other men were portrayed and treated the same way as drug addicts, as people who had the world at their feet but abandoned it for seedy association with addled workers and lumpenproles. the use of the revised narrative of the gay entrepreneur, the gay politician, the gay petty-bourgeois, etc. to attack and slander cultures on the periphery and support violent intervention doesn't demand a scorched-earth response nor a lack of human compassion. and i don't have to tell you that those approaches are strategic suicide, at least for the time being.
i mean thats true. but you're then claiming that the vestiges of past repression and more repressive sexual politics gives it a progressive character today and I've not found a compelling reason to believe that. It's obvious already that the LGBT movement in Israel is entirely reactionary, the radical queer movement there has about as much influence on the movement as a whole as trots do on the labor party. Whether the U.S. or Europe are as bad I'm not sure, it's clear that this is all very new and gay marriage nationwide is a foundational event for a new, fully articulated homonationalism, when before it was mostly left to the left to eat itself alive with some war-mongering from Obama and Hollywood in defense of gay rights.
but you're just taking the easy way out and are totally unprepared for the full integration of gay rights into human rights discourse.
babyhueypnewton posted:but you're just taking the easy way out and are totally unprepared for the full integration of gay rights into human rights discourse.
i'm certainly taking an easier way than your way, but i'm not 100% sure that makes me wrong
cars posted:babyhueypnewton posted:but you're just taking the easy way out and are totally unprepared for the full integration of gay rights into human rights discourse.
i'm certainly taking an easier way than your way, but i'm not 100% sure that makes me wrong
and yes obviously the gay rights that are being celebrated are white bourgeois gay rights based on the right to private property and this is a huge contradiction. already liberals are squirming about their self-congratulations because of that trans latina activist. but if we can apply the standards of the communist party to ourselves we can apply it to so called "postmodern" identity movements and say that whatever people think, the leadership, ideological hegemony, and organizational structure of the gay rights movement are entirely behind empire. who cares what liberals on the internet and a few radicals with no discipline do?
babyhueypnewton posted:just to be clear everything I say should imply that heterosexual desire is equally constituted by capitalist modernity and is much more useful for it (even if this is just bc of history). heterosexuality is like whiteness or maleness and should be abolished, though obviously not by homosexuality. Jasbir Puar goes so far as to question queerness itself as another form of sexuality that serves as the controlled chaos of the state, not sure I would go that far. We may just lack the imagination and the socialist history to see what a post-sexuality humanity looks like.
ty that does help me understand your position,
cars posted:what can i say? you won't listen to me unless i come to where you live, find some gay working class people and introduce you to them, and probably not even then because as far as i can tell you consider homosexual desire, not identity, but desire, to be false consciousness. the gay working class people i know would be rolled by what you describe as "homonationalism" too. the term they use is "startup dyke" or "startup fag" for the mary cheney types who rainbow-flag out their twitters so they can pitch their retro video games or state senate campaigns. the idea that there is no locus for resistance among the people i know is outright preposterous to me because i work with them. if anything the practice and acceptance in the community of models of behavior that eschew competitiveness, for both men and women, makes them more inclined to listen to such ideas than many other people i know. i realize that this might as well be alien writing to you because they haven't chosen suicide, scrupulous self-flagellation or monk-like exile, but again, consider that the hard way isn't necessarily the right one. nor is the way to prepare for a flood holing yourself up in a house on the side of a hill. the way humans survive on floodplains is teamwork.
we can still believe in radical communists in the first world and the existence of a labor aristocracy. I'm sure there are radical queer working class people in America, and I'm sure many of them are even happy about the gay marriage decision, but the movement is constituted on the privatization of sexuality (Lawrence v. Texas), the bourgeoisification of gay identity (gay marriage), and postmodern coalition politics (dumb straight liberals on facebook), all of which directly feed into racism and islamophobia and are not incidental or even parallel to it.
desire is constituted by capitalism, this is not unique to sexuality. that may be too structuralist for you though, I never saw the problem since capitalism making its own gravediggers implies that resistance to capitalism takes place entirely within its own ideology.
babyhueypnewton posted:We may just lack the imagination and the socialist history to see what a post-sexuality humanity looks like.
guy who fucked a 3rd-world prostitute says sexuality is structured by capitalism.... lmao
babyhueypnewton posted:desire is constituted by capitalism, this is not unique to sexuality. that may be too structuralist for you though, I never saw the problem since capitalism making its own gravediggers implies that resistance to capitalism takes place entirely within its own ideology.
i just don't understand why the play has to be that hard right now. i can't just toss off "i'm sure you're really happy about gay marriage" during the actual encounter with these people, because they are, they're very happy that they enjoy the transitional privilege of not dying alone in the twisted configuration of a life where they still have to put themselves into debt to not die in the hospital in the first place, and respecting that is definitely make-or-break for them ...also thanks for the concern but like, nothing is too structuralist for me, i'm a catholic leftist who lives in the united states, you might as well picture me as constantly floating in the Time Tunnel with various logos and ikons flying past
NoFreeWill posted:homofascism, at last!
COINTELBRO posted:homosexuality is symmetric with Death, it lacks any generative potential, is totally concerned with narcissistic excess and depraved lust, good god-fearing working class men practice fagbashing as a necessary ritual to stomp out the anti-social effeminate indolence out of their fellow men and install cooperative manly socialist Virtue, homosexuality is at the heart of the iconoclastic denial of socialism, homosexuality is a perpetual childish stage, homosexuality is simultaneously weak and insidious, homosexuality is Thanatos, dissidence, sadomasochism, AIDS, body fascism, virulent misogyny, rootless effeminacy, reckless pornography, homosexuality is equal to and worse than pederasty and prostitution and bestiality, homosexuality is gaey, and homosexuality finds its perfect avatar in the filth of the anus. i love it
COINTELBRO posted:homosexuality is symmetric with Death, it lacks any generative potential, is totally concerned with narcissistic excess and depraved lust, good god-fearing working class men practice fagbashing as a necessary ritual to stomp out the anti-social effeminate indolence out of their fellow men and install cooperative manly socialist Virtue, homosexuality is at the heart of the iconoclastic denial of socialism, homosexuality is a perpetual childish stage, homosexuality is simultaneously weak and insidious, homosexuality is Thanatos, dissidence, sadomasochism, AIDS, body fascism, virulent misogyny, rootless effeminacy, reckless pornography, homosexuality is equal to and worse than pederasty and prostitution and bestiality, homosexuality is gaey, and homosexuality finds its perfect avatar in the filth of the anus. i love it
you forgot to say "cheers"
COINTELBRO posted:homosexuality is symmetric with Death, it lacks any generative potential, is totally concerned with narcissistic excess and depraved lust, good god-fearing working class men practice fagbashing as a necessary ritual to stomp out the anti-social effeminate indolence out of their fellow men and install cooperative manly socialist Virtue, homosexuality is at the heart of the iconoclastic denial of socialism, homosexuality is a perpetual childish stage, homosexuality is simultaneously weak and insidious, homosexuality is Thanatos, dissidence, sadomasochism, AIDS, body fascism, virulent misogyny, rootless effeminacy, reckless pornography, homosexuality is equal to and worse than pederasty and prostitution and bestiality, homosexuality is gaey, and homosexuality finds its perfect avatar in the filth of the anus. i love it
Skawrfm0AIM
COINTELBRO posted:homosexuality is symmetric with Death, it lacks any generative potential, is totally concerned with narcissistic excess and depraved lust, good god-fearing working class men practice fagbashing as a necessary ritual to stomp out the anti-social effeminate indolence out of their fellow men and install cooperative manly socialist Virtue, homosexuality is at the heart of the iconoclastic denial of socialism, homosexuality is a perpetual childish stage, homosexuality is simultaneously weak and insidious, homosexuality is Thanatos, dissidence, sadomasochism, AIDS, body fascism, virulent misogyny, rootless effeminacy, reckless pornography, homosexuality is equal to and worse than pederasty and prostitution and bestiality, homosexuality is gaey, and homosexuality finds its perfect avatar in the filth of the anus. i love it
babyhueypnewton posted:We may just lack the imagination and the socialist history to see what a post-sexuality humanity looks like.
I think I'm looking at it right now
cars posted:tbh i got pretty tired of posting all those trigger warnings for you over it. i hope that we can put all the transference behind us and move forward with a different relationship where you don't think of me as your father.
I didn't pick the name daddyholes. Why would you want others to address you as that lol
At the same time, the Korean Confederation of Trade Unions, the second largest national union and one of the most radical unions in the world, just won a historic victory in allowing illegal foreign workers to unionize under the KCTU umbrella. So the question is why can't we celebrate victories like gay rights while also celebrating the actual working class movement at the same time? Shouldn't we be trying to merge these two movements to push Korean youth towards the left when they've been drifting right for the last 20 years? The answer, sadly, is no.
The exact same question was asked in the 1997-2002, when the historic election of Kim Dae-jung happened at the same time as the Asian financial crisis and the IMF takeover of the Korean economy. The radical left movement, which had been a coalition of the middle class, students, and working class, split, and opposition to capitalism instead became opposition to "state capitalism" as represented by the military dictatorship. Wealth redistribution became "productive citizenship" and the welfare state became the neoliberal project of individual self improvement supported by welfare. This is the same story everywhere neoliberalism touches. What makes this situation unique is that there had been no welfare state before, the first attempts at social justice and wealth redistribution happened under neoliberal ideology.
So people asked is it better to have no welfare at all? Why not critically support Kim Dae-jung, even as a symbol of the democratic movement, while trying to keep the left relevant? Aren't genuinely progressive measures, like healthcare, homeless shelters, mental health care, pensions, etc. better than not having them, even if they are filtered through neoliberal ideology? Well the question answers itself. A neo-fascist government is in power, the working class has been entirely isolated from the middle class and student movement, and the last left political party (the United Progressive Party) was literally banned for being "pro-North" and its leaders arrested, something unthinkable 10 years ago. The economy is being privatized and identity politics have taken the place of not only left politics but even anti-American nationalism.
To bring it back to gay pride, what happened was that identity politics were not allowed to naturally develop in Korea but instead were imported. Instead of a welfare state developing along with left-liberalism and identity politics (under the conditions of Fordist labor aristocracy), it was imposed through imperialism. Even progressive ideas, if not from the masses and controlled by the communist party, serve imperialism. As Franz Fanon remarks when told his racial feelings are simply primitive class consciousness, " reminded me that my negritude was nothing but a weak stage...Not yet white, no longer completely black, I was damned. Jean-Paul Sartre forgets that the black man suffers in his body quite differently from the white man." Just as French affirmative action in Algeria, which far surpassed any racial affirmative action program in history, was the liberal "just" face of imperialism, gay rights are the progressive way of the white man telling the Asian that he is "not yet white." And while in the US, there is a conflict within the movement (as unbalanced as it is) between radicals and liberals because of the history cars points out. In Korea this doesn't exist (homosexuality as a concept also didn't exist until Japanese occupation), so the gay movement is entirely a neoliberal, identity politics, petit-bourgeois movement which serves the purposes of Empire and the US ambassador.
gyrofry posted:stegosaurus posted:what is the left position on the breakup of yugoslavia
i've only read parts of parenti's book but the bits i've read aren't hugely reliable
We'll see what it means for the other ongoing struggles, but im hopeful
This lady makes basically the same point I am. And this is identical what happened in neoliberal Korea: the proliferation of NGOs and new, wider networks of governmentality (the Tripartite Commission between labor, management, and government being the most important), the warping effect of neoliberal ideology and funding causing well meaning activists to accept identity politics, compromise their beliefs to get some crumbs, or become abandoned by their former comrades. And she's right, we're all doomed. All of these neoliberal welfare institutions, which were far more comprehensive than gay marriage and gays in the military, stopped getting funding once the IMF crisis was "over" and are now like a bad memory after a decade of conservative government. Gay marriage will probably be normalized but the gay rights movement is dead as dinner.