#11801
Post rating: ~
i never understood the point of those sorts of arguments.
#11802
Kurdt
Post rating: ~
how do i argued with libral
#11803
Post rating: +
Obnoxious dickwaving that does nothing but alienate potential allies, undermine struggle, and swell one's own ego? I C have I no A idea.
#11804
Post rating: +
The answer to 'How should I argue with trots' is always 'Don't.'
#11805
Post rating: ~

Themselves posted:

Who wants to give me a little help on why this perspective is wrong (or right I guess)? I get the feeling its Trot bullshit:

A: You're right that DotP isn't an idea that originated with Lenin, that's my point. Lenin simply put it into practice.

Trot Dude: Lol. Did he do that before or after dissolving the soviet councils and subsuming all their jurisdictions under his Sovnarkom government? Was it before or after he instituted the dictatorship of the one in production? The DotP is about the proletariat holding political power as a class and abolishing itself and class in general, not about their non-recallable representatives (such a petty bourgeois mindset) holding power in their stead and doing what they think is best. Marx makes fun of such nonsense both in his critique of mill and in the civil war in France . Now, you can say that Lenin had difficult conditions to juggle through, but that's a justification of the fact that he didn't institute (>Implying socialism, the conditions for the liberation of the proletariat can be instituted from the top and not from the proletariat themselves) either a form of socialism (the material base of that society was unchanged, and he and Bukharin knew and admitted to this) or of the DotP (the proletariat was relieved of the political power that it held briefly), not a rejection of that fact.

What are the topics I should educate myself on to have a better grasp on this stuff? Or this just Trot revisionism?

edit: I'll respond to my own post to show everybody how dumb I am. I didn't attend the Frankfurt school or anything so I'm probably not qualified to argue this, but my sense on this is that you can say Lenin did what you want to, it doesn't meant it wasn't also taking power away from the capitalist and bourgeois class and creating actually existing socialism.

Bukharin was a confessed traitor and Lenin died before the material base in Russia could be significantly affected. That was up to Stalin to do.

That's my analysis of this shite.



#11806
Post rating: ~
no I mean I'm too much of an intellectual baby to know if im dealing with a trot

dont wanna dickwave i want to go learn about some of the claims made
#11807
Post rating: ~
im a cia communist
#11808
Post rating: +
One of the best sources for this trot ironically is Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution. Trotskyism is a mental illness and not a political position though and hasn't had anything to do with what Trotsky actually wrote since 1956. Other than that tell him he doesn't live in reality and is just spewing a bunch of broad generalizations, falsehoods, and petty personal attacks on a man dead for almost 100 years in response to the real, complex conditions of 1918 Russia.

You're not gonna convince that guy of anything, a misguided but radical person on the street can be potentially talked to while a liberal special snowflake waiting for the perfect socialism from the comfort of their first world computer chair is useless.
#11809
Post rating: +
lol "dictatorship of one" I like how he uses dictatorship in the cold war liberal way while pretending he's comprehended Marx.
#11810
[account deactivated]
#11811
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +
trotskyism's cool. i'm a trot, and i love trotsky, and accordingly trotskyism. anyway gonna go read some more trotsky now, who, as i just said, is pretty great. ciao haters!
#11812
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +++++
"stalin, my name is baby huey, i've come from the future to teach you about maoism."

"maoism?"

"yes. first off, you're relying too much on bureaucracy and you have a clumsy technocratic view of socialism."

"oh you mean trotskyism."

"no! i mean that you need real worker's democracy based on councils of worker's and people's delegates if you want to avoid khrushchev revisionism."

"yeah that's trotskyism. guards, seize him!"
#11813
Kurdt
Post rating: ~
https://ia801408.us.archive.org/35/items/TheKhrushchevites/The%20Khrushchevites.pdf
#11814
Toronto
Post rating: +

getfiscal posted:

"stalin, my name is baby huey, i've come from the future to teach you about maoism."

"maoism?"

"yes. first off, you're relying too much on bureaucracy and you have a clumsy technocratic view of socialism."

"oh you mean trotskyism."

"no! i mean that you need real worker's democracy based on councils of worker's and people's delegates if you want to avoid khrushchev revisionism."

"yeah that's trotskyism. guards, seize him!"



material conditions beeyatch

#11815
Post rating: ~
"mao, my name is baby huey, i've come from the future to teach you about maoism-third-worldism"
#11816
[account deactivated]
#11817
Post rating: +
#11818
Post rating: +

peepaw posted:



the new jurassic world is lookin pretty good

#11819
Post rating: ~

babyhueypnewton posted:

One of the best sources for this trot ironically is Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution. Trotskyism is a mental illness and not a political position though and hasn't had anything to do with what Trotsky actually wrote since 1956.



Is that book worth reading?

#11820
Post rating: ~
fhnAiT3wwHo
#11821
Post rating: ~

WildStalins posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

One of the best sources for this trot ironically is Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution. Trotskyism is a mental illness and not a political position though and hasn't had anything to do with what Trotsky actually wrote since 1956.

Is that book worth reading?

Russ Brand is reading it at this very moment, I think enough has been said.

#11822
Kurdt
Post rating: ~
i read it. i also read everybody poops.
#11823
[account deactivated]
#11824
Post rating: ~
I'm gonna take that as a resounding "yes"
#11825
Post rating: +
last week i spent most of a busride from calgary to toronto talking to a trot (he was reading the revolution betrayed). we got along pretty ok and agreed on most things that needed doing as canadian communists. he'd visited cuba and venezuela apparently but didn't much care for them. i showed him steg's video and effortpost about cybersyn
#11826
Post rating: +
did you decapitate him en route, as is the canadian way?
#11827
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +

shriekingviolet posted:

did you decapitate him en route, as is the canadian way?

damn

#11828
Post rating: ~
hmm im open to poisoning my mind with trot revisionism too but i wont be convinced by one liners that i cannot determine the irony of

thanks for the recommendation bhpn i actually decided that I should check that out as well

soon full communism will be achieved in my synapses
#11829
chickeon
Post rating: ~

Bablu posted:

he'd visited cuba and venezuela apparently but didn't much care for them

what did he have to say about them

#11830
Post rating: ~
he was a white guy right out of college not part of any org so don't take him too serious, i think he was just doing tourism

cuba he repudiated completely. said people there were entirely disillusioned about socialism, claimed there was no worker discipline, i.e. he saw construction workers fallen asleep midday in their bobcats. no consumer goods. the end of soviet funds immiserated the country etc. basically cbc-level criticism

venezuela he liked a bit more because in the part he visited he saw small producers and businesses were banding together in co-ops with an aim towards greater public welfare or something. he meant like small farmers and bakeries. he claimed chavismo couldn't last much longer but was a good experiment with visibly positive results

i don't read a lot about either country so also i didn't want to say anything that would lead to factionalist bickering cuz i had to sit next to him for forty eight hours

Edited by Bablu ()

#11831
Post rating: +++++
oh man... construction workers taking a nap on the job.... madre de dios....
#11832
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +
i took a train from toronto to edmonton and back for a conservative party convention in 2002 which was yeah like 48 hours. i sat beside a young journalist. i tried to convince him canadian conservatives weren't like british tories and he seemed polite but dubious. it was the most uncomfortable physical ride ever though.
#11833
Post rating: ~
yeah srsly it's been a week and i've still not got feeling back in my left big toe. should've just taken my shoes off
#11834
Post rating: +
i watched that movie Mission to Moscow last night - was enjoyable. Sort of made me want to read more about the Russian Revolution and pre WWII (glorious Stalin) period

my favorite scene (aside from when the protagonist shoots down common falsehoods about the soviet union) is when Tukhachevskii is dancing with a lady and asks her, "So, have you read Marx?"

Edited by Themselves ()

#11835
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: ~
wtf why is there another movie called mission to moscow....
#11836
Toronto
Post rating: ~

Bablu posted:

last week i spent most of a busride from calgary to toronto talking to a trot (he was reading the revolution betrayed). we got along pretty ok and agreed on most things that needed doing as canadian communists. he'd visited cuba and venezuela apparently but didn't much care for them. i showed him steg's video and effortpost about cybersyn



time with friends is time well spent

#11837
Toronto
Post rating: ~
ussr was a lot closer to what socialism will look like then any petite-bourgeois vision of autonomous societies isolated from each other and withdrawn from the world
#11838
Post rating: +
Q: have you read Marx

A: why yes i believe it was these wicker chairs
#11839
political car tune
Post rating: +

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3685551&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
#11840
Post rating: +