#41
hi
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Maximilian Forte's Slouching Towards Sirte does a masterful job of describing Gaddafi's pragmatic strategy for undermining both US and neo-liberal hegemony in Africa. if you find a free PDF of it i suggest reading the subsection "Libyan Aid and Investment in Africa" under chapter three.
#42
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discipline posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:

Lessons posted:
Hmmm considering Qaddafi was squarely in the West's pocket before 2011
not necessarily true. he made concessions because he thought it would reduce Western hostility to his regime, as a lot of Third World leaders do.

Yes but somehow this qualifies them as the enemies of socialists whose countries hold the guns to their heads???


Well don't take it from me, take it from proud anti-imperialist and brave defender of the lion Assad, Hassan Nasrallah

#43
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#44
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discipline posted:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/syrians-support-assad-western-propagandahm wonder why Assad has called for elections in June (which the US is strongly against btw) given his bad standing with his own people


The poll in question is completely useless because the sample size is too small and you can't conduct scientific polling in a warzone anyway

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17155349

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#48
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#49
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HenryKrinkle posted:

Maximilian Forte's Slouching Towards Sirte does a masterful job of describing Gaddafi's pragmatic strategy for undermining both US and neo-liberal hegemony in Africa. if you find a free PDF of it i suggest reading the subsection "Libyan Aid and Investment in Africa" under chapter three.


Okay so this is a book that says, contrary to all public appearances that Libya had completely realigned for cooperation with the West, actually Gaddafi was secretly working to undermine imperialism in a way that no one knew or cared about before 2011. That sounds really interesting I should check it out at my local library yeeEEEAARGHH BZzzz BZZ BZZZZZZTTTTT

#50
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discipline posted:

I know you're not an organizer but surely you can see why supporting something while simultaneously undermining it to the public is sort of insane?


i dont see why "not invading iraq" and "the iraqi people have legitimate grievances with saddam" are mutually exclusive. this seems to buy into the idea that the us needs/will necessarily be some sort of global police, and i dont see why that's not an equally valid site for activism

e: i guess what i'm saying is more that "keep the us military out of basically everywhere" seems consistent (to me) with the idea that you can otherwise materially, physically, or rhetorically support local movements. i dunno, do you also think that the soviet intervention into afghanistan was a good thing because it was ostensibly to counter the growth of neoliberalism?

Edited by c_man ()

#51
Mike Nelson here.
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discipline posted:

if the Syrian people were not in the crosshairs of NATO/USA/Israel/GCC I'd be more ok with leftists of imperialist countries criticising his government. but it's pretty macabre to tell everyone how much you think Ghadaffi is a bad guy while NATO assists in the ethnic cleansing of Tawergha or am I wrong?

i don't think it matters what you or i believe about almost anything.

#52
tardy on these heaters
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Lessons posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:

Maximilian Forte's Slouching Towards Sirte does a masterful job of describing Gaddafi's pragmatic strategy for undermining both US and neo-liberal hegemony in Africa. if you find a free PDF of it i suggest reading the subsection "Libyan Aid and Investment in Africa" under chapter three.

Okay so this is a book that says, contrary to all public appearances that Libya had completely realigned for cooperation with the West, actually Gaddafi was secretly working to undermine imperialism in a way that no one knew or cared about before 2011. That sounds really interesting I should check it out at my local library yeeEEEAARGHH BZzzz BZZ BZZZZZZTTTTT



i found a handwritten book in the secret library that told me ur the hottest piece of ass in town

#53
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discipline posted:

BTW thug lessons I am critical of aspects of the Fatah party but don't preface my BDS work with those criticisms in fact it's pointless to be picketing a shop and also mentioning to passerby that Fatah is a corrupt regime that should be overthrown (by NATO? who knows bro!)


Well uh you also don't have to act like this is the Comintern during the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and refrain from ever criticizing Fatah or Syria on the grounds that if people find out the truth they might not support you. We're not doing the equivalent of BDS on Syria in this thread so I don't see how any of this is relevant.

#54
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discipline posted:

if the Syrian people were not in the crosshairs of NATO/USA/Israel/GCC I'd be more ok with leftists of imperialist countries criticising his government. but it's pretty macabre to tell everyone how much you think Ghadaffi is a bad guy while NATO assists in the ethnic cleansing of Tawergha or am I wrong?


I don't know, are you prepared to criticize NATO when Gaddafi gunned down his own people in the streets by the hundreds? Or criticize the US when Assad wages a campaign of torture and murder against his enemies in Syria? You tell me if somebody committing war crimes makes the other side immune from criticism.

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#57
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so for you it's a totally pragmatic thing, where it's fine to say 'sure some people in (place) have legitimate grievances against the ruler' as long as you don't say it publicly where propagandists will make it look like support for intervention?
#58
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discipline posted:

Are you willing to take a stand against Iraqi soldiers leaving babies to die on cold floors after stealing their incubators? Willing to take a stand against Afghans who sheltered Osama Bin Laden and caused 9-11?


Those are well-known to be false accusations and if you read this pamphlet by Glover Burr you'll find there's no evidence Saddam or the Taliban ever hurt anyone, ditto for Gaddafi and Assad. All the human rights agencies just completely fabricate this stuff for US propaganda.

#59
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c_man posted:

so for you it's a totally pragmatic thing, where it's fine to say 'sure some people in (place) have legitimate grievances against the ruler' as long as you don't say it publicly where propagandists will make it look like support for intervention?


I don't think it's actually true that you should never criticize publicly from a pragmatic standpoint, in actual debates the first thing out of the imperialists' mouths is "Oh so you support Saddam/The Taliban/whatever??" and if your answer is "Yes" or "No comment" or some sort of misdirection then you're likely to lose your audience

#60
UNUSUALY COOL
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how would you propagandize/agitate in the situation, lesson
#61
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Lessons posted:

c_man posted:
so for you it's a totally pragmatic thing, where it's fine to say 'sure some people in (place) have legitimate grievances against the ruler' as long as you don't say it publicly where propagandists will make it look like support for intervention?

I don't think it's actually true that you should never criticize publicly from a pragmatic standpoint, in actual debates the first thing out of the imperialists' mouths is "Oh so you support Saddam/The Taliban/whatever??" and if your answer is "Yes" or "No comment" or some sort of misdirection then you're likely to lose your audience



Seems to me like "Well no, of course not, The Taliban is horrible but we still shouldn't get involved" is likely to be read as a kind of misdirection too.

#62
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idk didnt noninterventionism use to be a big deal in us politics? as long as we're playing rhetorical games why not try to appeal to that tradition and frame the catastrophic military losses after wwii and the fall from economic grace in those terms?
#63
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daddyholes posted:

how would you propagandize/agitate in the situation, lesson


Idk what you'd agitate for in Syria. Stopping the war that didn't happen and isn't go to? Halting the weapon shipments they say aren't happening and maybe don't exist? Trying to get the US to about-face and support Assad? I don't see anything Western activists can really accomplish.

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#66
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Lessons posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:

Maximilian Forte's Slouching Towards Sirte does a masterful job of describing Gaddafi's pragmatic strategy for undermining both US and neo-liberal hegemony in Africa. if you find a free PDF of it i suggest reading the subsection "Libyan Aid and Investment in Africa" under chapter three.

Okay so this is a book that says, contrary to all public appearances that Libya had completely realigned for cooperation with the West, actually Gaddafi was secretly working to undermine imperialism in a way that no one knew or cared about before 2011. That sounds really interesting I should check it out at my local library yeeEEEAARGHH BZzzz BZZ BZZZZZZTTTTT



You're on notice.

#67
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Seymour Hersh said, iirc, that had been weapon shipments at some point and that they'd been discontinued.
#68
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Brown Moses.
#69
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#70
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jools posted:

Lessons posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:

Maximilian Forte's Slouching Towards Sirte does a masterful job of describing Gaddafi's pragmatic strategy for undermining both US and neo-liberal hegemony in Africa. if you find a free PDF of it i suggest reading the subsection "Libyan Aid and Investment in Africa" under chapter three.

Okay so this is a book that says, contrary to all public appearances that Libya had completely realigned for cooperation with the West, actually Gaddafi was secretly working to undermine imperialism in a way that no one knew or cared about before 2011. That sounds really interesting I should check it out at my local library yeeEEEAARGHH BZzzz BZZ BZZZZZZTTTTT

You're on notice.


#71
UNUSUALY COOL
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discipline posted:

so the correct thing to say is that the crimes of the assad regime pale in comparison with the crimes of the american regime.



I do and that's why I asked.

#72
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What I was asking is, how do you cram all those provisos in there. But Lessons has said that he just doesn't talk about it I guess?
#73
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#74
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in my completely anecdotal experience, my non-socialist acquaintances & friends are much more likely to buy the idea that the united states is viciously imperialist and the main source of death and despair in the world than they are the idea that, say, workers should own the means of production
#75
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daddyholes posted:

What I was asking is, how do you cram all those provisos in there. But Lessons has said that he just doesn't talk about it I guess?


I've argued with pro-interventionists a fair bit. I don't think US war crimes in other countries are really relevant except to demonstrate US intervention wouldn't be helpful, even potentially worse.

#76
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#77
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discipline posted:

and if you're going to be all alan colmes about really basic facts like AMERICA IS IN NO POSITION TO DICTATE MORALITY OR WAY OF LIFE TO ANYONE I don't know what to tell you.



i don't do this, hence my questions to LEssons

#78
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#79
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Lessons posted:

I've argued with pro-interventionists a fair bit. I don't think US war crimes in other countries are really relevant except to demonstrate US intervention wouldn't be helpful, even potentially worse.



Do you believe that we are already intervening or have already intervened in Syria; if so how do you approach people who believe we haven't, which in my experience is most people?

#80
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discipline posted:

it was the editorial u sorry



Gotcha okay. I thought maybe so but I wanted to be clear that I was coming at this as someone whose response in these conversations is that the U.S. is the ultimate & proximate threat