littlegreenpills posted:i think a good answer to this is "who cares about your friend"
this is basically the only reasonable response here, thx lgp
deadken posted:swampman posted:deadken posted:ok here's an example. one of my closest friends and confidantes is an extremely vocal and outspoken feminist and communist, active in campaigns against the exploitation of womens bodies both in pornified mass-media and third-world labour practices. she is also extremely into bdsm, particularly playing a submissive role with a male partner, and extreme pornography (including choke porn). naturally this provokes an ethical dilemma, as her political engagements and sexual desires appear to be oppositely articulated - but does this mean that her enjoyment is invalidated, that it's somehow false or conditioned by patriarchy, and that she should give it up? i don't know the answers to this but it's an important question
an article posted here in the last few months talked about how rape victims will often go on to have rape fantasies, and many will never have sex again without remembering the rape, in this way the rape is more significant than a mere physical assault as the woman really is forced to "enjoy" rape as it is forever bound with her sexuality. by which i mean, your friend is probably returning to the familiar with bdsm, and it probably comes from some early event in her sexual history, like, i don't know, being exposed to hardcore bdsm pornography at a young age
lol this is some terrible psedofreudianism
like it or not, the "Evidence" is that this is where most "Fetishes" "Come from,": past sexual experiences esp during childhood. Freud has nothing to do with
Crow posted:yea i prefer the pseudofreudianism where you can murder women in bed
discipline posted:deadken posted:ok here's an example. one of my closest friends and confidantes is an extremely vocal and outspoken feminist and communist, active in campaigns against the exploitation of womens bodies both in pornified mass-media and third-world labour practices. she is also extremely into bdsm, particularly playing a submissive role with a male partner, and extreme pornography (including choke porn). naturally this provokes an ethical dilemma, as her political engagements and sexual desires appear to be oppositely articulated - but does this mean that her enjoyment is invalidated, that it's somehow false or conditioned by patriarchy, and that she should give it up? i don't know the answers to this but it's an important question
I don't actually think it's a particularly important question unless she is looking for feminist/leftist acceptance of choke porn as something that liberates women.
except you've been pretty forthright in arguing for the abolition of choke porn
swampman posted:like it or not, the "Evidence" is that this is where most "Fetishes" "Come from,": past sexual experiences esp during childhood. Freud has nothing to do with
the evidence is that according to a Book, which is written down and therefore true, stalin murdered one hundred million people with his bare hands and africa is all messed up because of racial differences in iq tests
discipline posted:right because two people only exist in a bubble with each other and nothing else affects their relationship but their chats and safewords. this is neoliberal thinking ken
of course we're the products of external forces but what makes this instance any different from the innumerable other private reconstructions of power structures (pet ownership, aggressive team sports, 'reading' 'books') except omg choking or whatever
discipline posted:ken you are tripping if you think men and women have equal relationships in a society that proliferates choke porn and john worship
so are equal relationships between men and women entirely impossible under patriarchy
discipline posted:deadken posted:if the answer is no then wouldn't all of your relationships with men presumably fall into the category of women driving pleasure from their own oppression ie the thing you claim doesn't exist
actually my answer is yes, it is entirely impossible under patriarchy for men and women to have an equal relationship
how do you navigate this imbalance in your own relationships
deadken posted:ok so i guess you have to practice political lesbianism then
you have to practice political skoptsyism
deadken posted:i believe that there is nothing necessarily misogynist or exploitative about images of people performing sex acts and that while misogyny and exploitation is the present norm this is only because these images are situated in a wider social discourse of misogyny and exploitation. am i a shitheel
yeah well i think there is nothing necessarily racist or violent about slavery divorced from any real historical or material context. lol
people as individuals deal with patriarchy and capitalism in all sorts of fucked up and subconscious ways, our job as socialists and feminists is to change the structures that force women to internalize misogyny. not argue with individuals about whether they are bourgeois or not. to the masses, from the masses.
BDSM and fetish activities between consenting adults who both enjoy it aren't the problem.
discipline posted:you are putting a full stop after women enjoy their own oppression ken. I said it was something born out of survivalism, trauma, or other reasons. none of which are important when it comes to rallying and demanding the end to oppression of women.
ok so how do you navigate this in your own relationships.