#241
communism or porn? as comrade stalin would say, they are both worse
#242
what about glorious japanese anime porn in which all freaky and physically impossible sex acts are situated in the context of an equal and loving relationship
#243
anime porn is the least bad porn, because it doesn't exploit and degrade its performers as directly, and isn't arousing in the slightest
#244

littlegreenpills posted:

anime porn is the least bad porn, because it doesn't exploit and degrade its performers as directly, and isn't arousing in the slightest

it's too bad we scared away all the great posters with 2d complexes.

#245

HenryKrinkle posted:

andrea dworkin's idea wasn't that bad despite being legalistic and reformist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipornography_Civil_Rights_Ordinance



her book on porn has an uncomfortable amount of salacious anecdotal stuff- it reads like one of those pre-wwII "case study" books at times- but her thoughts on the matter are really interesting and made me question a lot of prior held assumptions

#246
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#247
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#248
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#249

discipline posted:

broadly, women are not going to join anything that advocates for their continued debasement and oppression.



i agree with everything in this post except for this patently untrue statement

#250

conec posted:

does she talk about being raped i wanted to read that a while back



i don't think she talks about her own experience in it- that's in letters from a war zone, maybe?- but she talks, at lots and lots of length, about the rapes of other women. she even gives a breathless, multiple page blow-by-blow of "story of the eye," at which point i throw up my hands. Her writing on how male dominance manifests in money, law, and power in it is very interesting, and she touches on a lot of other stuff as well, and she's very powerful throughout. The constant play-by-play of abuse, fictionalized and real, starts to become hard to read- ironically for the same monotony that simon de beauvoir finds in de sade, who is literally transposed here in page upon page

#251
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#252
lol no it doesn't
#253
to make a whole bunch of extremely insightful points about the totalising dominance of unquestioned and unquestioning sex-positivity within feminism and then claim that women won't participate in their own oppression seems like a bit of a stretch
#254
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#255
please do not casually insult the intelligent, determined and impassioned women who associate themselves with me and who i care about deeply khamsek ty
#256
discipline, why do you think authors like pat califia, who are willing to interrogate the role of capital (edit: at least somewhat) in everything from sexual legislation on children to prostitution, still find themselves unwilling to write off porn or prostitution entirely? I use weasel words there, but califia revels in it.
#257
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#258

discipline posted:

yeah the women who participate in their own oppression usually do it out of survivalism ken, they're generally not brainwashed little idiots. the ones on the "Left" like melissa gira grant get big money and loads of male approval for doing it, just like hillary clinton, belle knox and ayan hirsi ali.



i think making this kind of blanket statement is very much an easy way out. it's not just a front, it's not just survivalism, many women do derive enjoyment from their own oppression, and this needs to be understood before the structures of that oppression can be properly tackled

#259
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#260
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#261

discipline posted:

I'm not insulting them ken. I'd be insulting a lot of the women in my life I love and care about as well if I was insulting the women in your life you love and care about.



its hard to read a blanket statement about 'the type of women you are surrounded by' in any other way

#262

discipline posted:

deadken posted:

discipline posted:
yeah the women who participate in their own oppression usually do it out of survivalism ken, they're generally not brainwashed little idiots. the ones on the "Left" like melissa gira grant get big money and loads of male approval for doing it, just like hillary clinton, belle knox and ayan hirsi ali.


i think making this kind of blanket statement is very much an easy way out. it's not just a front, it's not just survivalism, many women do derive enjoyment from their own oppression, and this needs to be understood before the structures of that oppression can be properly tackled

ok ken, why do you think women derive enjoyment from their own oppression



i don't know. power is seductive, no bondage no delight, etc etc etc but i'm not really personally placed to answer this question

#263

deadken posted:

many women do derive enjoyment from their own oppression



male feminism, ladies & gentlemyn

#264
Ninjas LOVE gettng lynched. (Its deriving enjoyment now)
#265
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#266
ok here's an example. one of my closest friends and confidantes is an extremely vocal and outspoken feminist and communist, active in campaigns against the exploitation of womens bodies both in pornified mass-media and third-world labour practices. she is also extremely into bdsm, particularly playing a submissive role with a male partner, and extreme pornography (including choke porn). naturally this provokes an ethical dilemma, as her political engagements and sexual desires appear to be oppositely articulated - but does this mean that her enjoyment is invalidated, that it's somehow false or conditioned by patriarchy, and that she should give it up? i don't know the answers to this but it's an important question
#267
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#268
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#269
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#270

deadken posted:

ok here's an example. one of my closest friends and confidantes is an extremely vocal and outspoken feminist and communist, active in campaigns against the exploitation of womens bodies both in pornified mass-media and third-world labour practices. she is also extremely into bdsm, particularly playing a submissive role with a male partner, and extreme pornography (including choke porn). naturally this provokes an ethical dilemma, as her political engagements and sexual desires appear to be oppositely articulated - but does this mean that her enjoyment is invalidated, that it's somehow false or conditioned by patriarchy, and that she should give it up? i don't know the answers to this but it's an important question



i think a good answer to this is "who cares about your friend" and a better question is along the lines of "who generates the spread of a discourse in which women en masse are cajoled into accepting this sort of thing as an everyday requirement of being, making a choice that is no choice, also cui bono"

#271
lol
#272
Look I'm a communist and I love hurling racial slurs and kicking children, but that doesn't mean 1) I elevate these things to the level of grand strategy, 2) need to pathologize it, 3) need to stop doing it
#273
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#274

deadken posted:

ok here's an example. one of my closest friends and confidantes is an extremely vocal and outspoken feminist and communist, active in campaigns against the exploitation of womens bodies both in pornified mass-media and third-world labour practices. she is also extremely into bdsm, particularly playing a submissive role with a male partner, and extreme pornography (including choke porn). naturally this provokes an ethical dilemma, as her political engagements and sexual desires appear to be oppositely articulated - but does this mean that her enjoyment is invalidated, that it's somehow false or conditioned by patriarchy, and that she should give it up? i don't know the answers to this but it's an important question

an article posted here in the last few months talked about how rape victims will often go on to have rape fantasies, and many will never have sex again without remembering the rape, in this way the rape is more significant than a mere physical assault as the woman really is forced to "enjoy" rape as it is forever bound with her sexuality. by which i mean, your friend is probably returning to the familiar with bdsm, and it probably comes from some early event in her sexual history, like, i don't know, being exposed to hardcore bdsm pornography at a young age

#275
if it's an attempt to regain autonomy we need to inculcate the fact in small children that autonomy in daily life does not exist, and the only true choice a human being has is whether to remain a robot made of meat, an automaton descended from an ape with no more free will than a grandfather clock, or accept the animating will and command of the Lord
#276
ok here's an example. one of my closest friends and confidantes is an extremely vocal and outspoken feminist and communist, active in campaigns against the exploitation of womens bodies both in pornified mass-media and third-world labour practices. she is also extremely into heroin, particularly holing up for a week fixing every few hours. naturally this provokes an ethical dilemma, as her political engagements and narcotic desires appear to be oppositely articulated - but does this mean that her enjoyment is invalidated, that it's somehow false or conditioned by the drug trade, and that she should give it up? i don't know the answers to this but it's an important question
edit, im not sure this worked
#277
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#278
i don't think marxism is a standpoint theory. oppressed groups have perspectives of liberation but there is nothing essential about them which only they have access to. mao would not have won power if only the working class understands the perspective of the working class.
#279

swampman posted:

deadken posted:

ok here's an example. one of my closest friends and confidantes is an extremely vocal and outspoken feminist and communist, active in campaigns against the exploitation of womens bodies both in pornified mass-media and third-world labour practices. she is also extremely into bdsm, particularly playing a submissive role with a male partner, and extreme pornography (including choke porn). naturally this provokes an ethical dilemma, as her political engagements and sexual desires appear to be oppositely articulated - but does this mean that her enjoyment is invalidated, that it's somehow false or conditioned by patriarchy, and that she should give it up? i don't know the answers to this but it's an important question

an article posted here in the last few months talked about how rape victims will often go on to have rape fantasies, and many will never have sex again without remembering the rape, in this way the rape is more significant than a mere physical assault as the woman really is forced to "enjoy" rape as it is forever bound with her sexuality. by which i mean, your friend is probably returning to the familiar with bdsm, and it probably comes from some early event in her sexual history, like, i don't know, being exposed to hardcore bdsm pornography at a young age



lol this is some terrible psedofreudianism

#280
yea i prefer the pseudofreudianism where you can murder women in bed