blinkandwheeze posted:are you really too dense to understand that the abstinence from pornography & shaming those who consume has direct material benefits for organizing in the here and now. such as, like, encouraging the participation of women by not fucking normalizing their rape and abuse
i think that it's probably not a bad place to start? i think this will be as effective at curbing the abuses of the porn industry as shaming people about recycling is at curbing the tremendous waste involved in modern production. with regard to recycling, it's possible to pressure organizations much larger than an individual to adopt policies that are effective on a larger scale. can analogous pressures be placed on some organizations that will have effects on the production of porn on a similar scale?
c_man posted:shaming people about viewing pornography is not some sort of radical new idea. im not a historian but didn't the porn industry see pretty good growth under social conditions like the ones being proposed itt?
lol am i really going to have to hold your hand through this. nobody here is saying that the expansion of & the exploitation inherent to the pornographic industry can be mitigated solely by shaming or social stigmatization. i think there is a good case that could be made that direct action in the form of industrial sabotage like discipline suggested that could do this but thats an entirely different argument
what people are saying is that the emancipation of women from the exploitation of the pornographic industry can only be pursued through mass social organization outside of the decisions that can be made in the framework determined by capitalist society. this is entirely because stigmatization of consumers isnt enough to curb the reproduction of this industry in the same way stigmatizing the consumers of sneakers offers no practical antidote to the misery that accompanies the exploitation of the developing world. this would be evident to anyone with a basic reading comprehension but somehow you are still accusing people in this thread of advocating this?
what i am saying is pretty simple. the consumption of pornography normalizes the rape and abuse of women as it is an industry qualitatively characterised by the rape and abuse of women. the mobilization of social forces necessary to end the reproduction of this industry requires broad networks of solidarity between individuals. if the composite members of these networks engage in the consumption of the products of this industry they are active in the normalization of this rape and abuse inside these networks. as such, these networks become hostile to the participation of women and the security of those who do participate. this prevents these social networks from engaging with the concerns of women and their livelihoods, especially those victimized by these patterns of rape and abuse
c_man posted:can analogous pressures be placed on some organizations that will have effects on the production of porn on a similar scale?
no. the problems with the pornographic industry are not quantitative in character, they are qualitative. the production of pornography is necessarily the institutionalization of the rape of women. you cant apply pressure that results in rape or abuse being conducted more ethically, this is categorically not possible
discipline posted:I don't need to have full scale plans for a planned economy to stand against capitalism
.. but it helps! *katorovich bumper sticker glimmers in the moonlight as I screech off down the highway*
discipline posted:I quit so I'm not sure how this is relevant.
if you don't have a full-time job, your full-time job is finding a full-time job. something to think about.
babyhueypnewton posted:In the last game of thrones episode they apparently changed one of the sex scenes in the books from 'consensual' to outright rape. and the clickbait-blog-o-sphere is up in arms because how dare they change creepy fat man GRRM's books to be misogynist and watching rape makes people uncomfortable.
meanwhile theres a scene in the same ep where a bunch of women have been captured on the wall that protects the world and the good guy general casually walks down a line of them and says "rape" "slit her throat" or "rape and slit her throat" and no one has made a protest
Uhh this didn't happen lol. There's a scene that's passingly similar but basically everything here is incorrect, a guy walks with a woman through a crowd of Night's Watch brothers pointing out the crimes that they committed, "Raper, raper, slit a man's throat, raper", to explain why she probably doesn't want to stay at the Wall with her newborn child. He's also not a general, he's just some fat kid that joined like a month ago. You'd basically have to be outright retarded to misunderstand that scene so completely.
Lessons posted:You'd basically have to be outright retarded to misunderstand that scene so completely.
let's not take out our frustrations on the developmentally disabled, ninja
Lessons posted:babyhueypnewton posted:In the last game of thrones episode they apparently changed one of the sex scenes in the books from 'consensual' to outright rape. and the clickbait-blog-o-sphere is up in arms because how dare they change creepy fat man GRRM's books to be misogynist and watching rape makes people uncomfortable.
meanwhile theres a scene in the same ep where a bunch of women have been captured on the wall that protects the world and the good guy general casually walks down a line of them and says "rape" "slit her throat" or "rape and slit her throat" and no one has made a protestUhh this didn't happen lol. There's a scene that's passingly similar but basically everything here is incorrect, a guy walks with a woman through a crowd of Night's Watch brothers pointing out the crimes that they committed, "Raper, raper, slit a man's throat, raper", to explain why she probably doesn't want to stay at the Wall with her newborn child. He's also not a general, he's just some fat kid that joined like a month ago. You'd basically have to be outright retarded to misunderstand that scene so completely.
counterpoint: you read game of thrones
blinkandwheeze posted:c_man posted:shaming people about viewing pornography is not some sort of radical new idea. im not a historian but didn't the porn industry see pretty good growth under social conditions like the ones being proposed itt?
lol am i really going to have to hold your hand through this. nobody here is saying that the expansion of & the exploitation inherent to the pornographic industry can be mitigated solely by shaming or social stigmatization. i think there is a good case that could be made that direct action in the form of industrial sabotage like discipline suggested that could do this but thats an entirely different argument
what people are saying is that the emancipation of women from the exploitation of the pornographic industry can only be pursued through mass social organization outside of the decisions that can be made in the framework determined by capitalist society. this is entirely because stigmatization of consumers isnt enough to curb the reproduction of this industry in the same way stigmatizing the consumers of sneakers offers no practical antidote to the misery that accompanies the exploitation of the developing world. this would be evident to anyone with a basic reading comprehension but somehow you are still accusing people in this thread of advocating this?
what i am saying is pretty simple. the consumption of pornography normalizes the rape and abuse of women as it is an industry qualitatively characterised by the rape and abuse of women. the mobilization of social forces necessary to end the reproduction of this industry requires broad networks of solidarity between individuals. if the composite members of these networks engage in the consumption of the products of this industry they are active in the normalization of this rape and abuse inside these networks. as such, these networks become hostile to the participation of women and the security of those who do participate. this prevents these social networks from engaging with the concerns of women and their livelihoods, especially those victimized by these patterns of rape and abuse
c_man posted:can analogous pressures be placed on some organizations that will have effects on the production of porn on a similar scale?
no. the problems with the pornographic industry are not quantitative in character, they are qualitative. the production of pornography is necessarily the institutionalization of the rape of women. you cant apply pressure that results in rape or abuse being conducted more ethically, this is categorically not possible
Thanks for answering my question to some extent. Maybe it's really obvious to you but its clear that im really dumb or something so bear with me. What can these social networks do to end pornography? You said yourself it's not going to be through simply convincing other people not to buy it isn't possible. You mention industrial sabotage. Is this the plan? You also say that the problem is qualitative and not quantitative. I assume that you don't mean that a reduction in the size of the industry wouldn't be a good thing. Is that the mechanism you're interested in using? Shrink the industry until you can drown it in the bathtub? Im obviously extremely dumb but that seems like it would be really difficult considering it's popularity. So maybe not. At the legal level, making t prohibitively expensive due to lawsuits? Maybe thats where the the industrial sabotage comes in? Am I out in space or am I getting warmer?
discipline posted:c_man posted:and i think it's a lot easier to effectively use social pressure for something visible, like recycling, as opposed to something invisible (and until relatively recently, compulsively lied about) like pornography.
invisible? hey sounds like *DING DING DING* you're not a woman
im sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that it is much easier to lie about not watching porn than it is to lie about recycling, since recycling is often a public act whereas not watching porn is generally a private abstention.
NoFreeWill posted:except 99.5% of men would choose porn over communism every day of the week.
then it's simple. as rosweird says, we end men,
Lessons posted:babyhueypnewton posted:In the last game of thrones episode they apparently changed one of the sex scenes in the books from 'consensual' to outright rape. and the clickbait-blog-o-sphere is up in arms because how dare they change creepy fat man GRRM's books to be misogynist and watching rape makes people uncomfortable.
meanwhile theres a scene in the same ep where a bunch of women have been captured on the wall that protects the world and the good guy general casually walks down a line of them and says "rape" "slit her throat" or "rape and slit her throat" and no one has made a protestUhh this didn't happen lol. There's a scene that's passingly similar but basically everything here is incorrect, a guy walks with a woman through a crowd of Night's Watch brothers pointing out the crimes that they committed, "Raper, raper, slit a man's throat, raper", to explain why she probably doesn't want to stay at the Wall with her newborn child. He's also not a general, he's just some fat kid that joined like a month ago. You'd basically have to be outright retarded to misunderstand that scene so completely.
oh haha I just went back and watched the scene and he's saying "raper" but the british accent is so strong i thought he said "rape her". tbf i was watching a torrented copy which was kinds ghetto and the dude who said it is some random guy i didnt recognize not the fat dude.
whoops
that movie's racist
\
NoFreeWill posted:actually nothing will work because male desire is a force stronger than any social bond or moral system.
thats why you circumvent male desire and directly attack the um...the uhh *loosens tie* the means of...umm *sweats profusely*....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipornography_Civil_Rights_Ordinance
discipline posted:short answer: yes you're a shit heel
ok thank you