#161
Mike Nelson here.
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c_man posted:

if you want to have results before judgement day full communism there need to be concrete goals that can be met that will reduce suffering.

this isn't true. you don't owe the world a worked-out plan to solve every social problem. you can just be angry about things.

#162
Dont Mess With Sucess
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as a concrete goal, the creators and purveyors of pornography should be totally exterminated, and some men will need to be permanently blinded, to be decided case-by-case
#163
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#164
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If you're tempted to watch porn, try watching this first. Fullscreen mode.

#165
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#166
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c_man posted:

shriekingviolet posted:

this isn't the same thing as "try to buy from less exploitative grocery stores." yes, they are all exploitative, but you need food to live. so it is somewhat reasonable to propose that you can create a (negligible) amount of harm reduction by purchasing from less terrible food shops.

you don't need porn. at all.

i dont and i dont use porn. im talking about the goals of a movement. if you want to have results before judgement day full communism there need to be concrete goals that can be met that will reduce suffering.



this is wrong, the point of revolutionary defeatism and transitional demands is precisely that they cannot be met under capitalism's need for accumulation. what you're thinking of is mass work for the daily survival of the masses which takes place as a war of position OUTSIDE of hegemony and in the gaps of ideology, not as an 'alternative' more humane version

#167
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maybe my problem is that i think that having a realistic plan of action and/or goals is better than not having that
#168
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#169
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#170
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discipline posted:

socialists and anti-capitalists not consuming pornography is pretty much a no-brainer.


unless something drastic happens in the near future this has a vanishingly small relevance at least in the US

#171
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#172
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#173
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#174
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Yes, as Huey Newton says

Where there is courage, where there is self-respect and dignity, there is a possibility that we can change the conditions and win. This is is a possibility that we can change the conditions and win. This is called revolutionary enthusiasm and it is the kind of struggle that is needed in order to guarantee a victory. If we must die, then we will die the death of a revolutionary suicide that says, “If I am put down, if I am driven out, I refuse to be swept out with a broom. I would much rather be driven out with a stick because if I am swept out with the broom it will humiliate me and I will lose my self-respect. But if I am driven out with the stick, then, at least, I can claim the dignity of a man and die the death of a man rather than the death of a dog.”



-The Revolutionary Communalism of the Black Panther Party, 1970

The fight against pornography is a fight for women's survival and dignity, it is not itself revolutionary or concerned with specific political battles. in addition pornography takes the vigor out of young men, who live in a state of lethargy and spectacle. the revolution must have fighters, courageous young women and men who dare to win. dare to struggle, dare to win!

#175
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discipline posted:

I don't need to have full scale plans for a planned economy to stand against capitalism


im not asking for a full planned economy, if we're using that metaphor. i don't think that is really worth thinking about because (at least imo) i think that by the time something like full communism becomes a political possibility there will already be very different things to concern us. in the meantime i think supporting initiatives like increased minimum wage is a Good Thing, because it will alleviate the suffering of millions of people. that is to say, i think legislative goals are a very effective way of organizing around something concrete and attainable in a way that has lasting effects. maybe you think that there isn't any kind of workable legislation or short term structural changes that can help the situation. that's what im interested in.

#176
Mike Nelson here.
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babyhueypnewton posted:

transitional demands

#177
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#178
Mike Nelson here.
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discipline posted:

I don't know, publications and groups that purport to speak for the "radical American left" advocating the legalization of johns and harassment of feminists is a pretty big deal to me and pretty relevant to the health of a mass movement against capitalism

i told one of the jacobin dudes not to insult stalin and he said "LOLZ" and then unfollowed me, if you need more evidence.

#179
Mike Nelson here.
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c_man posted:

i think legislative goals are a very effective way of organizing

#180
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#181
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im very skeptical of the idea that if we all just change our own lifestyle then we can force "society" to do what we want. that seems like a great way to put yourself in a niche and become a social curiosity, like someone who makes really sure to recycle all of their belongings and separate them properly. sure that's a great effort and it's certainly better than not doing that but i think its probably more productive to lobby and try and get regulating legislation passed, or to coerce large corporations to use biodegradable materials.
#182
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#183
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c_man posted:

im very skeptical of the idea that if we all just change our own lifestyle then we can force "society" to do what we want. that seems like a great way to put yourself in a niche and become a social curiosity, like someone who makes really sure to recycle all of their belongings and separate them properly. sure that's a great effort and it's certainly better than not doing that but i think its probably more productive to lobby and try and get regulating legislation passed, or to coerce large corporations to use biodegradable materials.



i dont remember anyone who said building alternative hegemonic institutions doesnt also come with party building, day to day survival organization, theoretical work, and direct political action? but lol @ lobbying, you've played your hand too soon.

#184
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discipline posted:

only a small number of documented working people actually make minimum wage. also mcd will not be able to raise the minimum wage across the board. the fight for raising the minimum wage is useful in that it raises the awareness of inequality and poverty in the united states. it is not a panacea for the 35 million americans on food stamps, and many many millions more who live in poverty, not all of whom make minimum wage might I add. again: feminist porn is not about raising awareness of exploitation in the sex industry - rather, it is an ethical consumer alternative. also:


not many people make exactly minimum wage but plenty of people make just a teensy bit above it and raising the minimum by a large margin (e.g. to $15 or something) would make an actual difference. maybe i'm wrong here. but i don't think we totally disagree here. is there some goal, analogous to minimum wage legislation, that would do some kind of similar awareness raising for the porn industry? that's what i'm after and i think something like that is a better way to proceed.

#185
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#186
Mike Nelson here.
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one thing that's interesting about early social debates in the soviet union is that they were generally not framed in terms of individual choice or morality. for example, the terms of the abortion debate were whether women had the capacity to raise a child, and the danger involved in the procedure. abortion was criminalized under stalin, but this was done because the procedure was see as involving too many risks, the socialist system was seen as capable of supporting all mothers, and there was a perceived need for more children. the debate was not focused on whether a woman had a 'right' to an abortion or whether terminating a pregnancy was 'immoral'.
#187
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#188
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: +

c_man posted:

discipline posted:

only a small number of documented working people actually make minimum wage. also mcd will not be able to raise the minimum wage across the board. the fight for raising the minimum wage is useful in that it raises the awareness of inequality and poverty in the united states. it is not a panacea for the 35 million americans on food stamps, and many many millions more who live in poverty, not all of whom make minimum wage might I add. again: feminist porn is not about raising awareness of exploitation in the sex industry - rather, it is an ethical consumer alternative. also:

not many people make exactly minimum wage but plenty of people make just a teensy bit above it and raising the minimum by a large margin (e.g. to $15 or something) would make an actual difference. maybe i'm wrong here. but i don't think we totally disagree here. is there some goal, analogous to minimum wage legislation, that would do some kind of similar awareness raising for the porn industry? that's what i'm after and i think something like that is a better way to proceed.

while we're at it, we should do something about the price of popcorn and soda at the movies, what a ripoff!

#189
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like, if you don't oppose the attempts to oppose the attempts to oppose the minimum wage increase legislation while also acknowledging that they are not a universal cure for the ills of capitalism, why not something like, idk, requiring strong healthcare plans for people in the porn industry? that's really dumb but something like that, that would by proxy bring into public discussion the abuses of the industry?
#190
Mike Nelson here.
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discipline posted:

getfiscal posted:

discipline posted:
i told one of the jacobin dudes not to insult stalin and he said "LOLZ" and then unfollowed me, if you need more evidence.

which one

shawn gude

#191
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roseweird posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

-The Revolutionary Communalism of the Black Panther Party, 1970

nobody cares what you can quotes, those aren't your words



stop holding grudges against text on a computer screen thanks

#192
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discipline posted:

so that's basically the difference between a revolutionary and a reformist innit


is it? i dont think the existing system should be preserved, i think that acting now in addition to a revolutionary change later is better strategy than just having a revolution later, whenever that is. maybe that's what you mean.

#193
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#194
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#195
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#196
Dont Mess With Sucess
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c_man posted:

like, if you don't oppose the attempts to oppose the attempts to oppose the minimum wage increase legislation while also acknowledging that they are not a universal cure for the ills of capitalism, why not something like, idk, requiring strong healthcare plans for people in the porn industry? that's really dumb but something like that, that would by proxy bring into public discussion the abuses of the industry?

chris brown's abuses of the rihanna were a matter of public discussion and that dude got probation and community service

#197
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like, im pretty sure we agree on the important points (porn industry bad, feminist porn not solution to bad) but i guess i think its weird for someone who (as far as i believe anyone on the internet) actually worked organizing labor to have so little to say about acting in the here and now in other respects. i would think that supporting the strengthening of labor unions would be the calling card of a reformist (defined however you define it, i guess)

edit: this post @ discipline if that's not obvious
#198
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swampman posted:

chris brown's abuses of the rihanna were a matter of public discussion and that dude got probation and community service


yeah and thats terrible. if there's something concrete to work forward to that will curb this sort of thing i will support it.

edit: maybe you would prefer that i harangue my leftist friends about it, or maybe go and scold the local bro contingent while they hoot and holler about how manly it is

Edited by c_man ()

#199
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c_man posted:

but i guess i think its weird for someone who (as far as i believe anyone on the internet) actually worked organizing labor to have so little to say about acting in the here and now in other respects



are you really too dense to understand that the abstinence from pornography & shaming those who consume has direct material benefits for organizing in the here and now. such as, like, encouraging the participation and security of women by not fucking normalizing their rape and abuse

#200
California
Post rating: +++++

getfiscal posted:

beloved comedian chris rock had a joke back in the day about the OJ verdict where he said "black people too happy, white people too mad". anyway whenever a thread about social issues comes up that's what i heard in my head. as jon stewart says, "the truth is in the middle".



i nonverbally shame my friends who watch porn using jon-stewart-inspired facial expressions