#121
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sure but what could you do to make it like BDS? that is, develop it out of a broader movement for equality and not an end in and of itself
#122
California
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the solution is to throw stuff that everybody will ignore onto the pile
#123
[account deactivated]
#124
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#125
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also one battle it's possible to win and the other is not.
#126
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discipline posted:

BDS is not about creating alternatives. it's about tearing down an apartheid state. nothing about feminist porn is about tearing down the porn industry, especially since feminist porn depends on it to define itself as a niche alternative


lol way to totally miss my point.

#127
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so do you think anything in particular should be done? criminalize pornography? or is impotently raging against the evils in society enough?
#128
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I'm pretty sure she didn't miss your point, you are asking how feminist porn could be made to be like BDS instead of just an alternative, and she is saying it can't, because feminist porn can only exist as an alternative within the porn industry
#129
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why? and also, so what? movements from within an industry can change the way an industry works.
#130
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saying "x is impossible" is a really dumb starting point
#131
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discipline posted:

market-based propaganda, consumer activism


#132
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especially with a term as nebulous and dissent-ridden as "feminist"
#133
Dont Mess With Sucess
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the only women who ever seem to argue that porn can empower women, are women who have themselves been in porn. either porn actresses, many 18-20 years old, are making the adult choice to empower themselves by choosing to use their body and sexuality however they please, which somehow implies starring in a porno - or they are victims of legalized and publicly broadcast rape. considering the social status of porn actresses and the permanence of video the "empowerment" sounds easier to cope with.
#134
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its certainly not hard to believe that there will never be any sort of porn that discipline will "accept", but that's hardly the same thing
#135
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the solution to a violent directly exploitative practice is to stop it, not to give people a slightly less violent mediatedly exploitative alternative that does not and cannot actually oppose the existing practice

the point of BDS is to shame and ultimately stop israel, not to airdrop comfy throw pillows on gaza so that their concentration camp is a little bit more cozy
#136
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so are you for the prohibition of pornography? do you think that will work?
#137
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#138
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im not asking for your ideal world, im asking what positive, immediate goals you think should be aimed at
#139
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#140
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i dont think the sex industry isnt harmful, thats dumb. i think that people who want to promote an alternative is better than wailing into the abyss about the moral implications of it being there in the first place, because it's actually making progress towards a concrete goal and incremental progress is something that happens. even if not a solution it changes the playing field. people have been morally indicting porn for centuries and that doesn't seem to have done much good.
#141
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discipline posted:

stop watching porn. if you are brave enough, shame your friends who watch porn. it fosters a culture that supports disrespect and the oppression of women and girls.


is this really it? you have no particular vision for ending these exploitative practices beyond wagging your finger at the bad men?

#142
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: +
Discipline, let's say I watched a porn full of lesbian women, doing empowering sex acts like the Menorah or the Reverse Ruth Hall, and then there was a behind the scenes epi where the whole production crew is women (and they're all making out and touching each other), and in an extended continuous take, everyone signs affidavits that they had an awesome time filming without any coercion today, thanks for watching! The end. I would be a feminist if I crouched over my computer screen and masturbated watching that, right? I mean, it would be POSSIBLE for me to watch a movie while rubbing my penis, and thereby advance the cause of feminism, CORRECT?!?
#143
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its sort of crazy how saying "financially support an alternative to exploitative working conditions" is a ridiculous because the industry is too big and bad but "tell people to stop financially supporting exploitative working conditions" is real hot shit
#144
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In the last game of thrones episode they apparently changed one of the sex scenes in the books from 'consensual' to outright rape. and the clickbait-blog-o-sphere is up in arms because how dare they change creepy fat man GRRM's books to be misogynist and watching rape makes people uncomfortable.

meanwhile theres a scene in the same ep where a bunch of women have been captured on the wall that protects the world and the good guy general casually walks down a line of them and says "rape" "slit her throat" or "rape and slit her throat" and no one has made a protest

this, I claim, is pure ideology, the structural rape and violence of capitalism is acceptable but confronting today's liberal communists with the direct object of their misogynist desire is the ultimate taboo. HBO's GOT has finally done something revolutionary instead of just being softcore porn and it is unacceptable
#145
Online
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c_man posted:

its sort of crazy how saying "financially support an alternative to exploitative working conditions" is a ridiculous because the industry is too big and bad but "tell people to stop financially supporting exploitative working conditions" is real hot shit

i think it's not crazy, at all, because "feminist porn" is the exact same thing and doesnt solve anything. i thought you came in here saying you didnt have an opinion but it seems you've formed a very ... reformist position as you've gone along

#146
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what do we do about lethal working conditions in a factory used by some company? buy from a different company? thats crazy, and actually even worse. not buy from that company? fucking brilliant!
#147
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ilmdge posted:

i think it's not crazy, at all, because "feminist porn" is the exact same thing and doesnt solve anything. i thought you came in here saying you didnt have an opinion but it seems you've formed a very ... reformist position as you've gone along


my newfound opinion is that discipline's plan is even worse
let me be clear: i dont think "feminist porn" will, by itself, solve any of the problems associated with the industry.

#148
Mike Nelson here.
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discipline posted:

shame your friends

lol

#149
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c_man the point is that the creation and support of less-harmful alternatives won't create incremental progress. feminist pornography under capitalism supports the existence of the pornographic industry under capitalism. the pornographic industry under capitalism is inherently exploitative and harmful. "feminist" pornography creates a guilt soothing alternative for liberals who want their lives to continue as they are without them feeling bad for doing the things they're going to keep doing no matter what, this is the opposite of fostering change.

if you want to create incremental progress then cultivate a culture of resistance that vocally refuses to engage in this harmful industry, as part of the huge task of creating a culture of people who are willing and able to resist and overthrow capitalist power.
#150
Post rating: +

c_man posted:

its sort of crazy how saying "financially support an alternative to exploitative working conditions" is a ridiculous because the industry is too big and bad but "tell people to stop financially supporting exploitative working conditions" is real hot shit



youre a fucking moron lmao

#151
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: +

c_man posted:

what do we do about lethal working conditions in a factory used by some company? buy from a different company? thats crazy, and actually even worse. not buy from that company? fucking brilliant!

i know you think everyone is annoyed with your stupid posting, but it's hilarious to watch you squirm, squirm, squirm around the idea of not watching porn anymore without ever daring to touch it

#152
[account deactivated]
#153
Post rating: +
this isn't the same thing as "try to buy from less exploitative grocery stores." yes, they are all exploitative, but you need food to live. so it is somewhat reasonable to propose that you can create a (negligible) amount of harm reduction by purchasing from less terrible food shops.

you don't need porn. at all.
#154
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shriekingviolet posted:

c_man the point is that the creation and support of less-harmful alternatives won't create incremental progress. feminist pornography under capitalism supports the existence of the pornographic industry under capitalism. the pornographic industry under capitalism is inherently exploitative and harmful. "feminist" pornography creates a guilt soothing alternative for liberals who want their lives to continue as they are without them feeling bad for doing the things they're going to keep doing no matter what, this is the opposite of fostering change.

if you want to create incremental progress then cultivate a culture of resistance that vocally refuses to engage in this harmful industry, as part of the huge task of creating a culture of people who are willing and able to resist and overthrow capitalist power.


so what you're saying is that a vocal movement to boycott the porn industry, perhaps coupled with legislation that would "sanction", if you will, the industry for exploitative practices, would be a good idea and a way to move forward.

#155
[account deactivated]
#156
Mike Nelson here.
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beloved comedian chris rock had a joke back in the day about the OJ verdict where he said "black people too happy, white people too mad". anyway whenever a thread about social issues comes up that's what i heard in my head. as jon stewart says, "the truth is in the middle".
#157
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discipline posted:

woah c_man, seems like you have misinterpreted my prescription for YOU to be a universal revolutionary road to success. or maybe you were coming at me in bad faith?


i asked you what you think should be done. i thought i was clear that i was talking about positive, material goals of a movement and not that i was asking for lifestyle tips.

#158
[account deactivated]
#159
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shriekingviolet posted:

this isn't the same thing as "try to buy from less exploitative grocery stores." yes, they are all exploitative, but you need food to live. so it is somewhat reasonable to propose that you can create a (negligible) amount of harm reduction by purchasing from less terrible food shops.

you don't need porn. at all.


i dont and i dont use porn. im talking about the goals of a movement. if you want to have results before judgement day full communism there need to be concrete goals that can be met that will reduce suffering.

#160
Post rating: +
c_man you're not thinking dialectically. nothing 'needs to be done', the current state is a result of the weakness and revisionism of the feminist movement. strengthen radical socialist feminism and the abolition of pornography becomes a transitional demand rather than a source of infighting in feminist thought.