thirdplace posted:

yeah if you're looking to buttress global capitalism i don't think making up a planet-altering externality contributed to by pretty much every sector of the economy would really be your first choice

don't get me wrong, i think it's very clear that the whole idea gets a lot more mainstream support than it would otherwise because there are a lot of people looking to get in the ground floor of some kind of godawful carbon trading market, to say nothing of the "green energy" industry more generally. but you don't have to parrot the daily mail to critique bullshit like that

what bullshit?

the warming has, if not stopped, been far slower than anyone anticipated despite carbon emissions increasing exponentially

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

c_man posted:

why don't climate models exactly match the data? because fluids are hard. because climate systems have complex feedback effects in the environment. a model necessarily has to draw lines somewhere and say "these are the only things that matter for this model" and climate systems are extremely open ended in terms of the types of effects that can matter. this is basic shit for anyone who claims to have an educated opinion about climate science, but apparently you prefer to lean back in your desk chair and whine about anyone trying to change the status quo for the better.



i never claimed to be 'educated in climate science', just like i wouldn't claim to be 'educated in voodoo ritual' if i was giving you financial planning advice

climatology is a scam

a scam by whom?

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

c_man posted:

why don't climate models exactly match the data? because fluids are hard. because climate systems have complex feedback effects in the environment. a model necessarily has to draw lines somewhere and say "these are the only things that matter for this model" and climate systems are extremely open ended in terms of the types of effects that can matter. this is basic shit for anyone who claims to have an educated opinion about climate science, but apparently you prefer to lean back in your desk chair and whine about anyone trying to change the status quo for the better.

i never claimed to be 'educated in climate science', just like i wouldn't claim to be 'educated in voodoo ritual' if i was giving you financial planning advice

climatology is a scam

I have AIDS.

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

c_man posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
c_man posted:

why don't climate models exactly match the data? because fluids are hard. because climate systems have complex feedback effects in the environment. a model necessarily has to draw lines somewhere and say "these are the only things that matter for this model" and climate systems are extremely open ended in terms of the types of effects that can matter. this is basic shit for anyone who claims to have an educated opinion about climate science, but apparently you prefer to lean back in your desk chair and whine about anyone trying to change the status quo for the better.



i never claimed to be 'educated in climate science', just like i wouldn't claim to be 'educated in voodoo ritual' if i was giving you financial planning advice

climatology is a scam

a scam by whom?

a media that thrives on selling fear for starters, scientists who want to keep the gravy train running, politicians looking for an issue to exploit, energy companies and 'startups' looking for government handouts, academics looking to establish careers or horde the perks of talkfests, wall street financiers who agitate for trading schemes and other new bullshit ways of fleecing the public purse and making money out of trading nonsensical shit like carbon credits or credit default swaps

I have AIDS.

c_man posted:

"oh man the prison industry is totally captured by corporate interests, its all bullshit anyway" *releases tens of thousands of prisoners, crime rate soars*

roseweird posted:

i can't even tell what you're all talking about now but it doesn't sound like either science or politics

climatology, and i agree: it's not science

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

c_man posted:

"oh man the prison industry is totally captured by corporate interests, its all bullshit anyway" *releases tens of thousands of prisoners, crime rate soars*

you've correctly grasped the concept that the correct response to something being captured by corporate interests is not to immediately abandon it but rather to do the hard work of correcting the systematic problem that underlies the superficial corporatism

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

littlegreenpills posted:

even if it is a fiction how does burning LESS fossil fuels and doing LESS industrial production over the scale of the entire globe particularly support the neoliberal cause

artificially increases power prices that privatized energy companies can charge consumers

what do you think is the rationale behind OPEC?

NEXT

this doesn't work at all. OPEC is a cartel that sells oil to the rest of the world, they have their own interests, they don't care about the oil crisis throttling global aggregate output as long as they're getting paid more for the oil they sell. fine. what you're talking about is a generalized conspiracy of energy companies thinking up excuses to hobble themselves in real ways, as a result making energy more expensive, passing costs along to the rest of the economy, WITHOUT making any extra profit themselves, because costs are increased. even ignoring the fact they're the ones fighting this tooth and nail, how are they supposed to be making any money off of this? Potemkin wind turbines? pretend carbon sequestration?

littlegreenpills posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
this doesn't work at all. OPEC is a cartel that sells oil to the rest of the world, they have their own interests, they don't care about the oil crisis throttling global aggregate output as long as they're getting paid more for the oil they sell. fine. what you're talking about is a generalized conspiracy of energy companies thinking up excuses to hobble themselves in real ways, as a result making energy more expensive, passing costs along to the rest of the economy, WITHOUT making any extra profit themselves, because costs are increased. even ignoring the fact they're the ones fighting this tooth and nail, how are they supposed to be making any money off of this? Potemkin wind turbines? pretend carbon sequestration?

littlegreenpills posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
littlegreenpills posted:
even if it is a fiction how does burning LESS fossil fuels and doing LESS industrial production over the scale of the entire globe particularly support the neoliberal cause
artificially increases power prices that privatized energy companies can charge consumers

what do you think is the rationale behind OPEC?

NEXT


this doesn't work at all. OPEC is a cartel that sells oil to the rest of the world, they have their own interests, they don't care about the oil crisis throttling global aggregate output as long as they're getting paid more for the oil they sell. fine. what you're talking about is a generalized conspiracy of energy companies thinking up excuses to hobble themselves in real ways, as a result making energy more expensive, passing costs along to the rest of the economy, WITHOUT making any extra profit themselves, because costs are increased. even ignoring the fact they're the ones fighting this tooth and nail, how are they supposed to be making any money off of this? Potemkin wind turbines? pretend carbon sequestration?

how are the energy companies being hobbled?

and yes all wind turbines are potemkin wind turbines

c_man posted:

capitalism is capitalist, no way. but that doesn't mean the problem is a fake one. its the same as in medicine. pharmaceutical companies are entirely corrupt but to say that scientific medicine is purely a scam and cannot be rehabilitated is nonsense.

'climate science' cannot be 'rehabilitated' because humans, even given all our technology, cannot predict the future

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

c_man posted:

capitalism is capitalist, no way. but that doesn't mean the problem is a fake one. its the same as in medicine. pharmaceutical companies are entirely corrupt but to say that scientific medicine is purely a scam and cannot be rehabilitated is nonsense.

'climate science' cannot be 'rehabilitated' because humans, even given all our technology, cannot predict the future

sure they can, i can predict with near perfect accuracy which words you will see on your screen on the other side of the world. human have been predicting the motions of the planets for millenia. we can predict more or less what will happen when we try and explode something so hard it goes to the moon. to a lesser extent we can predict how some types of life will react to some stimuli and how weather will act over a short interval, but these systems are difficult to analyze effectively with current methods and the lines of inquiry are only about half a century old.

c_man posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
c_man posted:
capitalism is capitalist, no way. but that doesn't mean the problem is a fake one. its the same as in medicine. pharmaceutical companies are entirely corrupt but to say that scientific medicine is purely a scam and cannot be rehabilitated is nonsense.
'climate science' cannot be 'rehabilitated' because humans, even given all our technology, cannot predict the future

sure they can, i can predict with near perfect accuracy which words you will see on your screen on the other side of the world. human have been predicting the motions of the planets for millenia. we can predict more or less what will happen when we try and explode something so hard it goes to the moon. to a lesser extent we can predict how some types of life will react to some stimuli and how weather will act over a short interval, but these systems are difficult to analyze effectively with current methods and the lines of inquiry are only about half a century old.

yeah, same with the stockmarket: make me ten million dollars by next week, GO

good old predictability, empiricism, science, equilibrium, i guess they solve everything and anything huh