Barbarossa
Barbarossa
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I got into an argument over vaccines in a facebook group for atheists (lol) and became curious about their effectiveness as a result of seeing a group full of Rational Atheists fall over themselves equating criticism of the flu vaccine to being a crazy chemtrail watching bachmannite, saying that it's safe, it's effective, how dare you stand in the way of modern medical science, etc etc. So I decided to do some research and get some facts on the subject. I got on google and spent a few hours trying to dig dirt and man did I find it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/flu-shots-panacea-or-prop_b_831696.html
"The wholesale acceptance and promotion of the flu vaccine by government agencies, heath care institutions, pharmacies and physicians is at best based on flimsy, flawed or inadequate evidence. And at worst, it pushes a potentially harmful medical procedure on a poorly informed public."
"A comprehensive of the flu research in healthy adults aged 18-65 from 1960 to the present including over 40 clinical trials with over 70,000 people found no evidence of benefit for the flu vaccine. Most trials were poorly done, or inadequate to reach clear conclusions. Only the best 50 studies were included in the final analysis.
2. The only studies that showed benefit were industry funded. Despite this bias they tended to be published in the most prestigious journals and were the ones most widely quoted, while the publicly funded studies were less likely to show favorable conclusions.
3. They found cases of severe harm and inadequate reporting of adverse effects of the flu vaccine.
4. There are different 200+ strains of flu and viruses that infect people every year. The vaccine covers only about 10 percent of the virus strains that make people sick.
5. If the vaccine strain given in a particular vaccination happened to match the virus caught by the vaccinated person, the likelihood of getting sick from the flu was only reduced from 4 percent to 1 percent.
6. There was NO evidence that the vaccine reduced transmission of the flu (a major rationale for mass vaccination) or complications such as pneumonia (another major justification).
7. These conclusions included the data from biased industry studies yet still found no benefit except small reductions in flu symptoms in some industry studies.
8. They warned that their already negative conclusions may be UNDERSTATED because of the inclusion of industry funded studies in their review."
But there's more. The Cochrane Collaboration, described on Wikipedia as a non-profit reserch group of 31,000 expert volunteers from the medical, conducted a study on the effectiveness of the flu vaccine and guess what they say:
http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD001269/vaccines-to-prevent-influenza-in-healthy-adults
"Over 200 viruses cause influenza and influenza-like illness which produce the same symptoms (fever, headache, aches and pains, cough and runny noses). Without laboratory tests, doctors cannot tell the two illnesses apart. Both last for days and rarely lead to death or serious illness. At best, vaccines might be effective against only influenza A and B, which represent about 10% of all circulating viruses. Each year, the World Health Organization recommends which viral strains should be included in vaccinations for the forthcoming season."
"Authors of this review assessed all trials that compared vaccinated people with unvaccinated people. The combined results of these trials showed that under ideal conditions (vaccine completely matching circulating viral configuration) 33 healthy adults need to be vaccinated to avoid one set of influenza symptoms. In average conditions (partially matching vaccine) 100 people need to be vaccinated to avoid one set of influenza symptoms. Vaccine use did not affect the number of people hospitalised or working days lost but caused one case of Guillian-Barré syndrome (a major neurological condition leading to paralysis) for every one million vaccinations. Fifteen of the 36 trials were funded by vaccine companies and four had no funding declaration. Our results may be an optimistic estimate because company-sponsored influenza vaccines trials tend to produce results favorable to their products and some of the evidence comes from trials carried out in ideal viral circulation and matching conditions and because the harms evidence base is limited."
The CDC's numbers look much better than the tests run by the Cochrane Collaboration and others, which makes me wonder if perhaps the CDC is promoting a for-profit health care product for reasons other than its objective necessity. I know, it's a real JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS, but anything's possible in 2013.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/flu-shots-panacea-or-prop_b_831696.html
"The wholesale acceptance and promotion of the flu vaccine by government agencies, heath care institutions, pharmacies and physicians is at best based on flimsy, flawed or inadequate evidence. And at worst, it pushes a potentially harmful medical procedure on a poorly informed public."
"A comprehensive of the flu research in healthy adults aged 18-65 from 1960 to the present including over 40 clinical trials with over 70,000 people found no evidence of benefit for the flu vaccine. Most trials were poorly done, or inadequate to reach clear conclusions. Only the best 50 studies were included in the final analysis.
2. The only studies that showed benefit were industry funded. Despite this bias they tended to be published in the most prestigious journals and were the ones most widely quoted, while the publicly funded studies were less likely to show favorable conclusions.
3. They found cases of severe harm and inadequate reporting of adverse effects of the flu vaccine.
4. There are different 200+ strains of flu and viruses that infect people every year. The vaccine covers only about 10 percent of the virus strains that make people sick.
5. If the vaccine strain given in a particular vaccination happened to match the virus caught by the vaccinated person, the likelihood of getting sick from the flu was only reduced from 4 percent to 1 percent.
6. There was NO evidence that the vaccine reduced transmission of the flu (a major rationale for mass vaccination) or complications such as pneumonia (another major justification).
7. These conclusions included the data from biased industry studies yet still found no benefit except small reductions in flu symptoms in some industry studies.
8. They warned that their already negative conclusions may be UNDERSTATED because of the inclusion of industry funded studies in their review."
But there's more. The Cochrane Collaboration, described on Wikipedia as a non-profit reserch group of 31,000 expert volunteers from the medical, conducted a study on the effectiveness of the flu vaccine and guess what they say:
http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD001269/vaccines-to-prevent-influenza-in-healthy-adults
"Over 200 viruses cause influenza and influenza-like illness which produce the same symptoms (fever, headache, aches and pains, cough and runny noses). Without laboratory tests, doctors cannot tell the two illnesses apart. Both last for days and rarely lead to death or serious illness. At best, vaccines might be effective against only influenza A and B, which represent about 10% of all circulating viruses. Each year, the World Health Organization recommends which viral strains should be included in vaccinations for the forthcoming season."
"Authors of this review assessed all trials that compared vaccinated people with unvaccinated people. The combined results of these trials showed that under ideal conditions (vaccine completely matching circulating viral configuration) 33 healthy adults need to be vaccinated to avoid one set of influenza symptoms. In average conditions (partially matching vaccine) 100 people need to be vaccinated to avoid one set of influenza symptoms. Vaccine use did not affect the number of people hospitalised or working days lost but caused one case of Guillian-Barré syndrome (a major neurological condition leading to paralysis) for every one million vaccinations. Fifteen of the 36 trials were funded by vaccine companies and four had no funding declaration. Our results may be an optimistic estimate because company-sponsored influenza vaccines trials tend to produce results favorable to their products and some of the evidence comes from trials carried out in ideal viral circulation and matching conditions and because the harms evidence base is limited."
The CDC's numbers look much better than the tests run by the Cochrane Collaboration and others, which makes me wonder if perhaps the CDC is promoting a for-profit health care product for reasons other than its objective necessity. I know, it's a real JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS, but anything's possible in 2013.
NoFreeWill
NoFreeWill
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If you look around you you will see that flu vaccines are heavily advertised and scaremongered both in the press and in real ads and it's also obvious they don't do shit. But other vaccines (the ones that are actual vaccines) work and are good and cool.
dipshit420
dipshit420
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NoFreeWill posted:If you look around you you will see that flu vaccines are heavily advertised and scaremongered both in the press and in real ads and it's also obvious they don't do shit. But other vaccines (the ones that are actual vaccines) work and are good and cool.
I thought the only reason they don't do shit is because there's like 12 strains out there and they only produce vaccines for the strain most likely to outbreak that year, and sometimes they predict wrong?
ilmdge
ilmdge
Online
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libelous_slander posted:NoFreeWill posted:If you look around you you will see that flu vaccines are heavily advertised and scaremongered both in the press and in real ads and it's also obvious they don't do shit. But other vaccines (the ones that are actual vaccines) work and are good and cool.
I thought the only reason they don't do shit is because there's like 12 strains out there and they only produce vaccines for the strain most likely to outbreak that year, and sometimes they predict wrong?
4. There are different 200+ strains of flu and viruses that infect people every year. The vaccine covers only about 10 percent of the virus strains that make people sick.
5. If the vaccine strain given in a particular vaccination happened to match the virus caught by the vaccinated person, the likelihood of getting sick from the flu was only reduced from 4 percent to 1 percent.
6. There was NO evidence that the vaccine reduced transmission of the flu (a major rationale for mass vaccination) or complications such as pneumonia (another major justification).
ilmdge
ilmdge
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front page this shit, the rhizzone is going ON THE RECORD as anti-vaccine. heck, this stance could protect the rhizzone from a mustang20 in the future
dipshit420
dipshit420
political car tune
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I apparently was operating off outdated information, though im not sure that huffpo is being entirely genuine here.
from CDC:
As determined by the CDC, the viruses in a flu shot and FluMist vaccine can change each year based on international surveillance and scientists' estimations about which types and strains of the flu will be most potent that year. Previously, all flu vaccines protected against three influenza viruses: one Influenza A (H3N2) virus, one Influenza A (H1N1) virus, and one Influenza B virus. Today, FluMist and some traditional flu shots cover up to four strains: two Influenza A viruses and two Influenza B viruses.
And from WebMD's FAQ:
What Are the Different Types of Flu?
There are three types of flu viruses: A, B, and C. Type A and B cause the annual influenza epidemics that have up to 20% of the population sniffling, aching, coughing, and running high fevers. Type C also causes flu; however, type C flu symptoms are much less severe.
The flu is linked to between 3,000 and 49,000 deaths and 200,000 hospitalizations each year in the United States. The seasonal flu vaccine was created to try to avert these epidemics.
What Is Type A Flu Virus?
Type A flu or influenza A viruses are capable of infecting animals, although it is more common for people to suffer the ailments associated with this type of flu. Wild birds commonly act as the hosts for this flu virus.
Type A flu virus is constantly changing and is generally responsible for the large flu epidemics. The influenza A2 virus (and other variants of influenza) is spread by people who are already infected. The most common flu hot spots are those surfaces that an infected person has touched and rooms where he has been recently, especially areas where he has been sneezing.
What Is Type B Flu Virus?
Unlike type A flu viruses, type B flu is found only in humans. Type B flu may cause a less severe reaction than type A flu virus, but occasionally, type B flu can still be extremely harmful. Influenza type B viruses are not classified by subtype and do not cause pandemics.
How Is Type C Flu Virus Different From the Others?
Influenza C viruses are also found in people. They are, however, milder than either type A or B. People generally do not become very ill from the influenza type C viruses. Type C flu viruses do not cause epidemics.
Do Different Types of Flu Viruses Hit the Population Each Year?
Different strains of the flu virus mutate over time and replace the older strains of the virus. This is why it's important to get a flu shot each year to ensure that your body develops immunity to the most recent strains of the virus.
from CDC:
As determined by the CDC, the viruses in a flu shot and FluMist vaccine can change each year based on international surveillance and scientists' estimations about which types and strains of the flu will be most potent that year. Previously, all flu vaccines protected against three influenza viruses: one Influenza A (H3N2) virus, one Influenza A (H1N1) virus, and one Influenza B virus. Today, FluMist and some traditional flu shots cover up to four strains: two Influenza A viruses and two Influenza B viruses.
And from WebMD's FAQ:
What Are the Different Types of Flu?
There are three types of flu viruses: A, B, and C. Type A and B cause the annual influenza epidemics that have up to 20% of the population sniffling, aching, coughing, and running high fevers. Type C also causes flu; however, type C flu symptoms are much less severe.
The flu is linked to between 3,000 and 49,000 deaths and 200,000 hospitalizations each year in the United States. The seasonal flu vaccine was created to try to avert these epidemics.
What Is Type A Flu Virus?
Type A flu or influenza A viruses are capable of infecting animals, although it is more common for people to suffer the ailments associated with this type of flu. Wild birds commonly act as the hosts for this flu virus.
Type A flu virus is constantly changing and is generally responsible for the large flu epidemics. The influenza A2 virus (and other variants of influenza) is spread by people who are already infected. The most common flu hot spots are those surfaces that an infected person has touched and rooms where he has been recently, especially areas where he has been sneezing.
What Is Type B Flu Virus?
Unlike type A flu viruses, type B flu is found only in humans. Type B flu may cause a less severe reaction than type A flu virus, but occasionally, type B flu can still be extremely harmful. Influenza type B viruses are not classified by subtype and do not cause pandemics.
How Is Type C Flu Virus Different From the Others?
Influenza C viruses are also found in people. They are, however, milder than either type A or B. People generally do not become very ill from the influenza type C viruses. Type C flu viruses do not cause epidemics.
Do Different Types of Flu Viruses Hit the Population Each Year?
Different strains of the flu virus mutate over time and replace the older strains of the virus. This is why it's important to get a flu shot each year to ensure that your body develops immunity to the most recent strains of the virus.
TG
TG
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the only time i think about flu vaccines is when someone i know gets one and then gets mildly ill for a day or so afterward and it makes me go hmmmm
i never get sick, btw, but i think thats mostly due to the fact that i lift 4 days a week
i never get sick, btw, but i think thats mostly due to the fact that i lift 4 days a week
Barbarossa
Barbarossa
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Yeah I'm not anti-vaccine or invested in it either way, it's just hilarious how an hour on google can debunk something that is now mandatory for some members of our population and is being pushed to every American above the age of six months. And why would be we need to develop a vaccine for mustang? He is weak enough on his own, watering him down would just leave us with a Glenn Beck book and pair of Dockers.
cars
cars
UNUSUALY COOL
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look on one hand the efficacy of the vaccine will depend on regional variation in strains but on the other hand if you're cool you will shoot pretty much anything without asking nerd questions
cars
cars
UNUSUALY COOL
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"will this make me stronger? what is the science behind the" just shut up and be glad some cool bro is helping you out with a clean needle
dipshit420
dipshit420
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palafox
palafox
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my cool frat doctor firmly takes me by the arm, looks me gently in the eye, and concurrently slams the needle in and the plunger down as I shotgun a beer and pop like half wood. who could question any of that?
Barbarossa
Barbarossa
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I thought for while before including a huffington post link, knowing full well that they advertise for bullshit cures that THE DOCTORS DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW, but the citations from Dr. Mark Hyman seem to be based on solid research and I think the article is well written so I put it in. And yeah, one of the replies to my criticism was literally "stop being a wuss and take the shot," so you are pretty much spot on, forums user daddyholes. Be a cool bro and take the shot, nerdly nerdlington! Now take this punch in the arm and don't rub it, you wuss
ilmdge
ilmdge
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Well yeah, there's still not really any harm to be done by taking the shot. Mostly it's just ineffective and a big pharma scam. but what if ur insurance covers it...
wasted
wasted
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words words and words
dank_xiaopeng
dank_xiaopeng
Marxsplainer
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lol if you pay for flu shots anyway, you can get them for free all over the place
Superabound
Superabound
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
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think of how much more badas HPV vaccines would be if you had to get a new one every year
Ironicwarcriminal
Ironicwarcriminal
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cool post Barbarossa, another blindspot in the rational atheist dogma
Lykourgos
Lykourgos
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I would take the shot but I don't get the flu anyway and even if I did I think the challenge would build character. Kind of like a spartan sleeping outside through winter with just a cloak and a bed of reeds, I will rest up in bed drinking tea and playing video games.
Lykourgos
Lykourgos
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Oh no I pressed submit twice, maybe I have the flu
thirdplace
thirdplace
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i think we both know the name of the disease that causes that, and it's not "the flu"
ilmdge
ilmdge
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Is the name of the disease that causes that in the thread title, thirdplace? But not the flu? Am I on the right track here?
dipshit420
dipshit420
political car tune
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ilmdge posted:Is the name of the disease that causes that in the thread title, thirdplace? But not the flu? Am I on the right track here?
its you
Superabound
Superabound
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lots of really misinformed people erroneously see these vaccines as a "cure" for the flu, when in fact they are actually a cure for not having autism
karphead
karphead
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i'm gonna wait until dr. dogballs weighs in on this issue
dipshit420
dipshit420
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