It seems in just about every LF thread, there's a post every ten pages or so with someone asking for help with debating a friend on Facebook, a relative via email, a racist coworker, etc. Since lots of people in LF have very particular knowledge, it's often hard to debate every issue and be highly informed about all of it. So let's work together to help goons debate crazy people/wrong people with concrete facts and informed arguments!
This is also sort of necessary because, in general, most LFers agree on most issues, and it would be good to get a thread with opposing views and discussions of rhetoric for the forum, rather than leaving it as it is, which is mostly a news & politics discussion space.
So let's help each other out with knowing where to look for good evidence to back up arguments, etc.
So I'll start things out and ask for some advice on how to approach the topic of the exchange of Gilad Shalit formany Palestinian prisoners, which I'm discussing with my friend on Facebook. I pointed out that many Palestinians in Israel are detained and held without trial, and that this was bad. I also, however, made the conciliatory gesture of saying that hopefully this exchange is a step toward the peace process that will reduce extremism among Palestinians. My friend, however, is not interested in seeing anything good about what Israel has given up in exchange for Shalit:
He has worked for AIPAC in the past and is informed on the issues but only from one side, really. I'm looking for advice on how to both avoid a heated discussion on whether Palestine or Israel is right here (because it will go nowhere) and how to emphasize that this exchange can be good for Israel beyond just having Shalit freed. He will only debate in terms of what's good for Israel, and that's where I've had the most success in the past.
Here are things which you can read and link to in order to debunk made up bullshit (Thanks especially to ShadowCatboy's OP on debating diplomatically
US Economy and Taxes
Government study into the effects of the Fairtax (chapter 9) - would be bad
Bush Tax Cuts did NOT increase tax revenue
Economists agree that stimulus helps the economy
Health insurance one of the least competitive markets
Top income earners pay only 16.68% tax in the US
US Senators' stock picks outperform stock picking specialists
Stronger teacher's unions correlated with better student performance
Historically, US economy is much better off under Democratic presidents than Republican
Story's thread deflating the myth of the American Dream. Link to full study on intergenerational social mobility
wigga please's thread in opposition to privatization policies
Poor people didn't cause the financial collapse of 2008: Part 1 Part 2
Mother Jones compilation of charts on wealth inequality
The Anarcho-Libertarian Utopia ? A Critique
RENT-SEEKING AND MUNICIPAL SOCIAL SPENDING Data from America’s Early Urban-Industrial Age
Franz Oppenheimer: The Idolatry of the State
Professor Richard D. Wolff - Marxian Economics at UMass Amherst
Minimum wage does not necessarily have negative consequences for economic growth and lowering minimum wage hurts agents in the economy
Rise in minimum wage significantly increased teenage wages without impacting teen employment
Per CBO estimates, extending tax cuts on the rich will reduce the unemployment rate by between 0% and 0.1%
There is no such thing as a free market.
US Business Cycle Expansions and Contractions: Evidence for when goldbugs and Paulites insist the Fed is the root of all evil in American capitalism. Recessions have been shorter and less frequent with active government intervention and the departure from laissez-faire.
Elizabeth Warren, "The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class"
Healthcare
Health insurance one of the least competitive markets
Mortality amenable to health care = US has the highest mortality in the 20 countries
Study - US spends twice as much on health care than the UK and has worse health outcomes
62% of bankruptcies in the US caused by medical bills, 75% of those had health insurance
Gul Banana's old OP for the thread "Why UHC is unambiguously necessary for America" in D&D
CBO paper on why tort reform won't magically fix the healthcare system in the US.
"Illness and Injury as Contributors to Bankruptcy"
Military and war
Increase in terrorism after the War on Terrorism began
1/3 of women in the US military are raped
Middle East, Israel/Palestine, and Mohommadism :tinfoil:
Lancet study on the humanitarian crisis in Israeli occupied territories
Human Sciences Rsearch Council report on how the Israeli-occupied territories meet the legal definition of apartheid
PCPSR, the main polling institution in the Palestinian Territories
Women, gender, and them gays
Study - dressing in revealing clothing does not lead to more rape
The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion
1/3 of women in the US military are raped
Study - homophobia associated with homosexual arousal
Homosexuality and Mental Health - summarizes some of the history of homosexuality and psychology, including its former classification as a mental illness
Psychiatry: Homosexuals Can Be Cured - From 1965, an interesting look at the attitudes of the time.
Facts About Changing Sexual Orientation
The History of the DSM and Gender Identity Disorder
Depathologizing Trans* Individuals - Regarding the DSM-V and how the more things change the more they stay the same
Genetics and environment determine sexual orientation. PDF
A study showing a correlation between endocrine signaling and sexual orientation that suggests at least a biological proclivity towards one sexual orientation or another
1,500 animal species practice homosexuality
Race, crime, and imprisonment
Death penalty - no deterrent effect
Study - black men face discrimination in hiring
Study - ligher skinned black people received lesser jail sentences
Zeigeist's thread on a Tim Wise article, collects a huge amount of studies showing the racial disparity in the US. Download article
Story's thread in defence of affirmative action policies
Innocents convicted: an empirically justified factual wrongful conviction rate | Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology
Guns
hdear:
Better gun law enforcement rather than further restrictions on gun supply reduce gun crime
States with laxer gun laws have higher gun crime
Study - guns in the home more likely to provide health risk than benefit
Firearms and violence: interpreting the connection. PDF download
Environment
How to talk to a climate skeptic, contains responses to various climate skeptic claims with links to evidence
Coal combustion releases more radioactive waste into environment than nuclear power
Science
Not Saint Darwin
Miscellaneous bullshit to be categorized when more articles are linked
Hand sanitizers worthless to prevent infection
Glenn Greenwald's study into drug decriminalization in Portgual - many benefits
Average football game has 11 minutes of play (more time devoted to showing replays)
Study - studies are worthless when it comes to changing someone's opinion
The paranoid style in american politics
A non-libertarian FAQ, contains critiques of various libertarian positions
Liberalism FAQ, contains arguments for many liberal positions such as "personhood does not begin at conception"
The little-told story of how the U.S. government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition. - By Deborah Blum - Slate Magazine
Prevalence of Child Malnutrition (Percent Underweight Under Age Five) - GlobalHealthFacts.org
Why We Don't Need Money - A sane alternative way of allocating resources
Do conservative governments make people want to die? Mortality and political climate: how suicide rates have risen during periods of Conservative government, 1901–2000
An authoritative source that outlines the benefits of legalizing weed and the problems created by not doing so
thanks for this. great stuff.
Panopticon posted:It seems in just about every LF thread, there's a post every ten pages or so with someone asking for help with debating a friend on Facebook, a relative via email, a racist coworker, etc. Since lots of people in LF have very particular knowledge, it's often hard to debate every issue and be highly informed about all of it. So let's work together to help goons debate crazy people/wrong people with concrete facts and informed arguments!
This is also sort of necessary because, in general, most LFers agree on most issues, and it would be good to get a thread with opposing views and discussions of rhetoric for the forum, rather than leaving it as it is, which is mostly a news & politics discussion space.
So let's help each other out with knowing where to look for good evidence to back up arguments, etc.
So I'll start things out and ask for some advice on how to approach the topic of the exchange of Gilad Shalit formany Palestinian prisoners, which I'm discussing with my friend on Facebook. I pointed out that many Palestinians in Israel are detained and held without trial, and that this was bad. I also, however, made the conciliatory gesture of saying that hopefully this exchange is a step toward the peace process that will reduce extremism among Palestinians. My friend, however, is not interested in seeing anything good about what Israel has given up in exchange for Shalit:
He has worked for AIPAC in the past and is informed on the issues but only from one side, really. I'm looking for advice on how to both avoid a heated discussion on whether Palestine or Israel is right here (because it will go nowhere) and how to emphasize that this exchange can be good for Israel beyond just having Shalit freed. He will only debate in terms of what's good for Israel, and that's where I've had the most success in the past.
internautseveral people for linking most of these. The rest of you are Randian leeches.)
ShadowCatboy's OP on debating diplomatically
US Economy and Taxes
Government study into the effects of the Fairtax (chapter 9) - would be bad
Bush Tax Cuts did NOT increase tax revenue
Economists agree that stimulus helps the economy
Health insurance one of the least competitive markets
Top income earners pay only 16.68% tax in the US
US Senators' stock picks outperform stock picking specialists
Stronger teacher's unions correlated with better student performance
Historically, US economy is much better off under Democratic presidents than Republican
Story's thread deflating the myth of the American Dream. Link to full study on intergenerational social mobility
wigga please's thread in opposition to privatization policies
Poor people didn't cause the financial collapse of 2008: Part 1 Part 2
Mother Jones compilation of charts on wealth inequality
The Anarcho-Libertarian Utopia ? A Critique
RENT-SEEKING AND MUNICIPAL SOCIAL SPENDING Data from America’s Early Urban-Industrial Age
Franz Oppenheimer: The Idolatry of the State
Professor Richard D. Wolff - Marxian Economics at UMass Amherst
Minimum wage does not necessarily have negative consequences for economic growth and lowering minimum wage hurts agents in the economy
Rise in minimum wage significantly increased teenage wages without impacting teen employment
Per CBO estimates, extending tax cuts on the rich will reduce the unemployment rate by between 0% and 0.1%
There is no such thing as a free market.
US Business Cycle Expansions and Contractions: Evidence for when goldbugs and Paulites insist the Fed is the root of all evil in American capitalism. Recessions have been shorter and less frequent with active government intervention and the departure from laissez-faire.
Elizabeth Warren, "The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class"
Healthcare
Health insurance one of the least competitive markets
Mortality amenable to health care = US has the highest mortality in the 20 countries
Study - US spends twice as much on health care than the UK and has worse health outcomes
62% of bankruptcies in the US caused by medical bills, 75% of those had health insurance
Gul Banana's old OP for the thread "Why UHC is unambiguously necessary for America" in D&D
CBO paper on why tort reform won't magically fix the healthcare system in the US.
"Illness and Injury as Contributors to Bankruptcy"
Military and war
Increase in terrorism after the War on Terrorism began
1/3 of women in the US military are raped
Middle East, Israel/Palestine, and Mohommadism :tinfoil:
Lancet study on the humanitarian crisis in Israeli occupied territories
Human Sciences Rsearch Council report on how the Israeli-occupied territories meet the legal definition of apartheid
PCPSR, the main polling institution in the Palestinian Territories
Women, gender, and them gays
Study - dressing in revealing clothing does not lead to more rape
The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion
1/3 of women in the US military are raped
Study - homophobia associated with homosexual arousal
Homosexuality and Mental Health - summarizes some of the history of homosexuality and psychology, including its former classification as a mental illness
Psychiatry: Homosexuals Can Be Cured - From 1965, an interesting look at the attitudes of the time.
Facts About Changing Sexual Orientation
The History of the DSM and Gender Identity Disorder
Depathologizing Trans* Individuals - Regarding the DSM-V and how the more things change the more they stay the same
Genetics and environment determine sexual orientation. PDF
A study showing a correlation between endocrine signaling and sexual orientation that suggests at least a biological proclivity towards one sexual orientation or another
1,500 animal species practice homosexuality
Race, crime, and imprisonment
Death penalty - no deterrent effect
Study - black men face discrimination in hiring
Study - ligher skinned black people received lesser jail sentences
Zeigeist's thread on a Tim Wise article, collects a huge amount of studies showing the racial disparity in the US. Download article
Story's thread in defence of affirmative action policies
Innocents convicted: an empirically justified factual wrongful conviction rate | Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology
Guns
Better gun law enforcement rather than further restrictions on gun supply reduce gun crime
States with laxer gun laws have higher gun crime
Study - guns in the home more likely to provide health risk than benefit
Firearms and violence: interpreting the connection. PDF download
Environment
How to talk to a climate skeptic, contains responses to various climate skeptic claims with links to evidence
Coal combustion releases more radioactive waste into environment than nuclear power
Science
Not Saint Darwin
Miscellaneous bullshit to be categorized when more articles are linked
Hand sanitizers worthless to prevent infection
Glenn Greenwald's study into drug decriminalization in Portgual - many benefits
Average football game has 11 minutes of play (more time devoted to showing replays)
Study - studies are worthless when it comes to changing someone's opinion
The paranoid style in american politics
A non-libertarian FAQ, contains critiques of various libertarian positions
Liberalism FAQ, contains arguments for many liberal positions such as "personhood does not begin at conception"
The little-told story of how the U.S. government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition. - By Deborah Blum - Slate Magazine
Prevalence of Child Malnutrition (Percent Underweight Under Age Five) - GlobalHealthFacts.org
Why We Don't Need Money - A sane alternative way of allocating resources
Do conservative governments make people want to die? Mortality and political climate: how suicide rates have risen during periods of Conservative government, 1901–2000
An authoritative source that outlines the benefits of legalizing weed and the problems created by not doing so
just beat his ass
discipline posted:arguing on facebook more than 20 minutes per day is a waste of your time lmao
THAT ALL OF OUR ENEMIES WILL CRUMBLE AT OUR FEET
FOR WHATEVER WE BIND ON EARTH SHALL BE BOUND IN COMMUNISM
AT THE NAME OF MAO SATAN HAS TO FLEE
II
FOR MANY YEARS NOW SATAN'S TRIED TO STOP US
BUT THE PATH OF LIGHT IS STILL ALIVE
LIKE A MIGHTY ARMY WE KEEP MARCHING ONWARD
WINNING EVERY BATTLE WITH POL POT BY OUR SIDE.
CHORUS
(CAUSE) WE'VE GOT THE POWER IN THE NAME OF MARX
WE'VE GOT THE POWER IN THE NAME OF STALIN
THO SATAN RAGES WE CANNOT BE DEFEATED
WE'VE GOT THE POWER IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.
Let's win this tumblr war, comrades.
ilmdge posted:He has worked for AIPAC in the past and is informed on the issues but only from one side, really. I'm looking for advice on how to both avoid a heated discussion on whether Palestine or Israel is right here (because it will go nowhere) and how to emphasize that this exchange can be good for Israel beyond just having Shalit freed. He will only debate in terms of what's good for Israel, and that's where I've had the most success in the past.
bEat.HIs.ASS
acephalousuniverse posted:why is the thing about football there
lol
peepaw posted:
ilmdge posted:mcrib is back
no tpaine no golden lion. all lies
the ussr grew far slower than the other peripheral european countries, it was also extremely unequal and had no redeeming features
try harder crow
discipline posted:arguing on facebook more than 20 minutes per day is a waste of your time lmao
even if you restrict it to 20 mins/day, you are still wasting over 121 hours a year doing something utterly pointless and totally fruitless. unless you were planning on committing horrific crimes or undermining the peoples' struggle/disorganizing workers during those hours, please do something - anything - else
peepaw posted:otoh
Superabound posted:just beat his ass
this, but w/ white phosphorous
AmericanNazbro posted:those are cool links and all but being a marxist simply to be self righteous and ensconced in complacency by feeling morally superior to your peers... that kind of misses the point iunno
isn't that the point of LF. d&D posters who wante dto have more correct opinions. i mean thats why i'm here i dunno about you but i haven't organized any labor recently. i didn't even go to my union protest yesterday and say something cool.