Crow posted:U should organize loabor or Kill urself
catchphrase
babyhueypnewton posted:Lykourgos posted:Right, and like I said, you're a middling person who'll live and die with no real qualities worth mentioning. Not the end of the world by any means, just know your place and don't forget yourself.
Getfiscal may be misguided in his appeals to liberalism but I know at heart he is a good marxist and a nice dude. Grumblefish, you on the other hand are some weird guy who no one liked in LF, no one likes here, and have been posting with the same obnoxious gimmick for about 10 years. Please kill yourself
i like lykourgos. or rather, i like that he posts here. i doubt i would get along with him personally, but that is ok. we need all types, here, at the rhizzone
roseweird posted:i hope lykourgos doesn't kill himself but i also hope he realizes that his obsession with middling-ness and mediocrity is probably a reflection of the fact that he is a small-town prosecutor in middle america and that upon realizing this gives up trying to make every one else feel bad about themselves
VoxNihili posted:architects design buildings. buildings are a necessity in our society. buildings provide shelter and can house important institutions. at the very least, architects make buildings safer.
i dont believe that trading stocks and futures etc. benefits society. i think the net result is simply moving wealth from certain individuals and classes to other individuals and classes.
the fact that architects are relatively closely connected to capital isnt particularly damning- almost every gainfully employed person is. those in finance, however, actively make things worse
and someone in finance can (conceivably) put the money to better use than some stupid artistic building, like funding the aclu or a university or your favorite leftist terrorist organization or whatever. or you could actually manage the finances of some important organization, which (i would think) is a much more positive act than designing a fancy art building and paying lip service to leftism and being an activist ~*~through your art~*~
im not trying to make some peter singer argument about how you should make as much money as possible in financial markets to have more money to donate to charities or whatever, im still basically saying that i think what you end up doing with your career makes a bigger difference than the career itself.
VoxNihili posted:AmericanNazbro posted:which is going to effectively be no different than working in finance or any position of privilege/power because capitalism exists outside of weird ass ideologues' conceptions of the world
yeah, trading derivatives is morally equivalent to being a doctor or an architect. *i smash my head into a window and eat the glass shards, then grin bloodily at you* all jobs that involve money at all are equally evil. if you buy food with money you earn, youre hitler
yes you moron? a doctor who has a monopoly on access to healthcare and stands as an impediment to people gaining access to healthcare is materially the same as someone in finance shifting capital to restrict X peoples access to healthcare. they both can function the same, and they both generally do because they both have a monopoly on access to capital.
you are making a tedious nuremberg defense argument stating that because doctors or architects (lol) are just following the natural order of capital they are removed from moral responsibility for participating in systems that inherently will exploit the proles. it's trite and asinine, and if you really want to handwring over morality of people's professions, then the ultimate conclusion from that line of reasoning is that the only moral job is for the subject to engage in labor organization pursuing socialism. but, you don't and you are just seeking a means to justify your apathy by classifying your current profession/lifestyle/whatever as neutral and acceptable enough to assuage cognitive dissonance. however, indifference and inaction are still going to support the continuation of the status quo, and if you are going to make such moral self-righteous proclamations you should either organize labor in line with the venerable Mao Tse Tung's thought, or you should kill yourself for being such a huge grating faggot
very friendly though, an old dude gave a great condemnation of the corruption of wealth but then his prescription was like 'yolo god wants it that way' and i felt a bit deflated.
there wasn't enough judgement for my liking
roseweird posted:keep going
maybe, it's an environment that'ts astonishingly free of cynicism but there weren't many lols or solaces to be had either
babyhueypnewton posted:Getfiscal may be misguided in his appeals to liberalism but I know at heart he is a good marxist and a nice dude.
thanks bro
AmericanNazbro posted:you are making a tedious nuremberg defense argument stating that because doctors or architects (lol) are just following the natural order of capital they are removed from moral responsibility for participating in systems that inherently will exploit the proles.
i thought that was the exact opposite of what he did? you can look at a life's work in two ways, how it rests within the web of a modern capitalist economy in which case sure it's basically all the same. but vox is saying you can also look at it de-reified, what is that person actually doing physically on a day to day basis. is that thing good, is that thing helpful? maybe that latter way of looking at things is pure liberalism, it certainly is if you're looking at it exclusively, but given the uniformity of the other mode of viewing it don't you think it's useful as a tiebreaker?
(posting as a guy who is in a terrible profession and does nothing of substance itt)
roseweird posted:i hope lykourgos doesn't kill himself but i also hope he realizes that his obsession with middling-ness and mediocrity is probably a reflection of the fact that he is a small-town prosecutor in middle america and that upon realizing this gives up trying to make every one else feel bad about themselves
what do you care since you feel bad about yourself anyway
Superabound posted:get a Job as an architect and use private funds to "artistically" design a building with various niches and alcoves where sleeping homeless and suspicious packages can be left for hours without receiving public scrutiny
interesting solution to the homeless problem, dont think i like it
thirdplace posted:last time i had a conversation about this distinction it was with a piece of shit banker who couldn't see it, was like "I DISTRIBUTE CAPITAL TO ECONOMICALLY USEFUL PROJECTS, CAN'T YOU SEE HOW THAT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAN FARMING OR PLUMBING OR WHATEVER?"
this, but instead of "economically useful" its "morally useful" and instead of farming/plumbing its navel-gazing art, (or in the doctor case, a different way of getting lots of money by exploiting a slightly different rigged system (unless you do something morally good and nonexploitative like idk is MSF terrible?))
Ironicwarcriminal posted:felt like a good day to go to church
hectic
c_man posted:thirdplace posted:last time i had a conversation about this distinction it was with a piece of shit banker who couldn't see it, was like "I DISTRIBUTE CAPITAL TO ECONOMICALLY USEFUL PROJECTS, CAN'T YOU SEE HOW THAT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAN FARMING OR PLUMBING OR WHATEVER?"
this, but instead of "economically useful" its "morally useful" and instead of farming/plumbing its navel-gazing art, (or in the doctor case, a different way of getting lots of money by exploiting a slightly different rigged system (unless you do something morally good and nonexploitative like idk is MSF terrible?))
the problem with the idea of going into finance with the aspiration of doing something morally useful is that unless you're very very good or very very lucky, you probably won't. compounding the first factor is that immersing yourself in the business school world will be so adverse to your mental health that it'll be all you can do to hold your life together, let alone kick the amount of ass you'll need to be able to dictate terms to that degree.
this is all conjecture on my part w/r/t finance but i did go to law school with that exact mindset and the only reason it wasn't a complete disaster was a stroke of extraordinary luck on my part... and even with that luck my paycheck comes from exploiting mostly poor people's vain hopes to beat a carefully rigged set of odds, lol
marimite posted:Besides certain exceptional cases, organizing labor in the first world is as self-serving as anything else because legal exploitation doesn't exist there. The only solution is to steal an education in hard science and move to the third world, or if you have significant amounts of capital, redistribute either to third world workers and peasants or towards libertarian causes that make legal exploitation possible in the first world. A good Marxist rule of thumb is if you make over 15k you should kill yourself.
A good Marxist rule of thumb is you need to stop posting.
thirdplace posted:the problem with the idea of going into finance with the aspiration of doing something morally useful is that unless you're very very good or very very lucky, you probably won't. compounding the first factor is that immersing yourself in the business school world will be so adverse to your mental health that it'll be all you can do to hold your life together, let alone kick the amount of ass you'll need to be able to dictate terms to that degree.
this is all conjecture on my part w/r/t finance but i did go to law school with that exact mindset and the only reason it wasn't a complete disaster was a stroke of extraordinary luck on my part... and even with that luck my paycheck comes from exploiting mostly poor people's vain hopes to beat a carefully rigged set of odds, lol
i agree basically but i was talking about finance/economics stuff is because i was talking about careers for someone with an econ degree. and also because for some weird reason econ/finance stuff seems like its a viable career path for people in physics graduate programs (i.e. me) and feel like i should spend some time thinking about what im going to do with my degree in non-revolutionary science that doesn't directly involve killing people in the event that i cant get a parasitic job in academia because i suck and dont have the motivation to do research in all of my waking hours.
Superabound posted:get a Job as an architect and use private funds to "artistically" design a building with various niches and alcoves where suspicious packages can be left for hours without receiving public scrutiny
ah yes, i see you're taking a few notes from the ayn rand school of architecture
c_man posted:thirdplace posted:the problem with the idea of going into finance with the aspiration of doing something morally useful is that unless you're very very good or very very lucky, you probably won't. compounding the first factor is that immersing yourself in the business school world will be so adverse to your mental health that it'll be all you can do to hold your life together, let alone kick the amount of ass you'll need to be able to dictate terms to that degree.
this is all conjecture on my part w/r/t finance but i did go to law school with that exact mindset and the only reason it wasn't a complete disaster was a stroke of extraordinary luck on my part... and even with that luck my paycheck comes from exploiting mostly poor people's vain hopes to beat a carefully rigged set of odds, loli agree basically but i was talking about finance/economics stuff is because i was talking about careers for someone with an econ degree. and also because for some weird reason econ/finance stuff seems like its a viable career path for people in physics graduate programs (i.e. me) and feel like i should spend some time thinking about what im going to do with my degree in non-revolutionary science that doesn't directly involve killing people in the event that i cant get a parasitic job in academia because i suck and dont have the motivation to do research in all of my waking hours.
goondolances
AmericanNazbro posted:VoxNihili posted:AmericanNazbro posted:which is going to effectively be no different than working in finance or any position of privilege/power because capitalism exists outside of weird ass ideologues' conceptions of the world
yeah, trading derivatives is morally equivalent to being a doctor or an architect. *i smash my head into a window and eat the glass shards, then grin bloodily at you* all jobs that involve money at all are equally evil. if you buy food with money you earn, youre hitler
yes you moron? a doctor who has a monopoly on access to healthcare and stands as an impediment to people gaining access to healthcare is materially the same as someone in finance shifting capital to restrict X peoples access to healthcare. they both can function the same, and they both generally do because they both have a monopoly on access to capital.
you are making a tedious nuremberg defense argument stating that because doctors or architects (lol) are just following the natural order of capital they are removed from moral responsibility for participating in systems that inherently will exploit the proles. it's trite and asinine, and if you really want to handwring over morality of people's professions, then the ultimate conclusion from that line of reasoning is that the only moral job is for the subject to engage in labor organization pursuing socialism. but, you don't and you are just seeking a means to justify your apathy by classifying your current profession/lifestyle/whatever as neutral and acceptable enough to assuage cognitive dissonance. however, indifference and inaction are still going to support the continuation of the status quo, and if you are going to make such moral self-righteous proclamations you should either organize labor in line with the venerable Mao Tse Tung's thought, or you should kill yourself for being such a huge grating faggot
there exists, friend, a sliding scale of morality. those engaged centrally in professions that necessarily further the propagation of injustice and exploitation are likely to be further toward the "making things worse" end of the scale rather than the "making things better" side.
youre carrying my statements to extremes that i did not intend. obviously you cannot classify every single person in finance as automatically evil and every single person who is a doctor as automatically good. but surely we can recognize that providing medical care is generally a moral good while providing predatory loans to the poor is generally a moral ill, yes? there is plenty of room for variation within this line of reasoning and ~each person's experiences will be unique~ but we can generalize to some extent without flipping over the table and yelling FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT perhaps???
of course doctors and architects are perpetuating a system by operating within it and receiving particular wages for their particular services. unless youre operating a revolutionary cell in india, so are you. dividing the world into THOSE PARTICIPATING IN CAPITAL-FINANCED SPHERES and THOSE NOT is not helpful and simply colors all but like 12 people as EVIL. it is unnecessarily reductive, self-serving, and childish to do so. we should instead categorize people according to what degree they are furthering the system
is a minimum wage sales clerk at a department store also "monopolizing access to (a service) and standing as an impediment to people gaining access to (that service)?" under your analysis, the answer is yes. this person is operating within the system as designated by capital and will decide not to distribute products based on need but rather based on payment. you would designate this person as morally equivalent to a predatory lender, and i find that designation to be absurd. basically your argument is "anyone who doesnt accept death rather than taking part in the capitalist system to feed themselves and their family deserves equally strict moral judgment" whereas i say "your choice of vocation implicates meaningful moral judgments even though such a choice is made within the restrictive confines of the exploitative capitalist system"
Edited by VoxNihili ()