roseweird posted:i wonder if plato didn't dream that men of justice 2500 years in the future might not have extended their learning at least a little bit in all that time
It's worse than that, read the Laws and see how we've regressed. We're still clawing our way out of the dark ages, oppressed by close-minded, modern politics...
elemennop posted:geometry in american high school may as well not be geometry, i'm starting to question your mental abilities as a supposed nobleman. even plato acknowledged the further development of mathematics, so if you're stuck on the planar geometry given by an american education, i cannot help but pity how woefully underdeveloped your mind is
I've never taken a geometry class in an American high school. Plato really wasn't a big math man so easy does it
Lykourgos posted:roseweird posted:i wonder if plato didn't dream that men of justice 2500 years in the future might not have extended their learning at least a little bit in all that time
It's worse than that, read the Laws and see how we've regressed. We're still clawing our way out of the dark ages, oppressed by close-minded, modern politics...
elemennop posted:geometry in american high school may as well not be geometry, i'm starting to question your mental abilities as a supposed nobleman. even plato acknowledged the further development of mathematics, so if you're stuck on the planar geometry given by an american education, i cannot help but pity how woefully underdeveloped your mind is
I've never taken a geometry class in an American high school. Plato really wasn't a big math man so easy does it
"Numbers are the highest degree of knowledge. It is knowledge itself." Australian and English highschools are probably even worse. The entire anglo-speaking world has terrible elementary mathematics education.
elemennop posted:ilmdge posted:actually elemenop's post mentioning math inspired me to find my old advanced algebra and analysis books so i just spent an hour and a half looking ofr them before i remembered they're in the trunk of my car.
rudin and lang? or maybe hartsford for algebra?
my analysis text like my advanced calc text was a badass tight little yellow book. the analysis text was by browder. abstract algebra was fraleigh but i feel like i might have lost that book. do these names mean anything. i dont know
roseweird posted:elemennop what texts would you recommend to a victim of american education hoping to improve their math skills prior to beginning studies in the sciences
like what do you want to improve? pure problem solving? or do you just not have the requisite knowledge in (for US terminology) pre-calculus areas of math?
ilmdge posted:elemennop posted:ilmdge posted:actually elemenop's post mentioning math inspired me to find my old advanced algebra and analysis books so i just spent an hour and a half looking ofr them before i remembered they're in the trunk of my car.
rudin and lang? or maybe hartsford for algebra?
my analysis text like my advanced calc text was a badass tight little yellow book. the analysis text was by browder. abstract algebra was fraleigh but i feel like i might have lost that book. do these names mean anything. i dont know
i've heard of fraleigh, haven't seen his book, but i think it's one of the standard texts. browder is a new one for me.
elemennop posted:"Numbers are the highest degree of knowledge. It is knowledge itself." Australian and English highschools are probably even worse. The entire anglo-speaking world has terrible elementary mathematics education.
I really doubt Plato is talking about math there; he talks about numbers in terms of being and in the hierarchy of knowledge. If you want to talk about applied mathematics, calculating things out to reach conclusions with some point in mind, then you aren't talking about Plato or Aristotle or really any gentlemen. Plato would probably think that calculators are irredeemably low class, along with other practical mathematical/geometrical devices.
EDIT: They were actually gentlemen who were more given to math, I take it back. It's just that Plato and Aristotle did not focus on working out mathematical formulas and theories. They used numbers for their theories of being, knowledge, and logic.
Edited by Lykourgos ()
this is the text although the prof passed out photocopied chapters of other books all the time
Lykourgos posted:elemennop posted:"Numbers are the highest degree of knowledge. It is knowledge itself." Australian and English highschools are probably even worse. The entire anglo-speaking world has terrible elementary mathematics education.
I really doubt Plato is talking about math there; he talks about numbers in terms of being and in the hierarchy of knowledge. If you want to talk about applied mathematics, calculating things out to reach conclusions with some point in mind, then you aren't talking about Plato or Aristotle or really any gentlemen. Plato would probably think that calculators are irredeemably low class, along with other practical mathematical/geometrical devices.
no he was talking about theoretical mathematics, look up platonism in the theory of mathematics. it's one of the 2 major competing theories in mathematics. plato had a lot to say about mathematics.
ilmdge posted:do you have a career in mathematics or are you stuck doing some other day job. or are you a student
i started my third year of graduate school, hopefully i'll have a job in the field, but who knows. i'll still be here a while.
elemennop posted:no he was talking about theoretical mathematics, look up platonism in the theory of mathematics. it's one of the 2 major competing theories in mathematics. plato had a lot to say about mathematics.
Which is why you will be quoting or giving a citation to Plato, where he had a "a lot to say" about mathematics. Plato was interested in numbers as part of his theory of being, knowledge, and logic. I don't see Plato doing applied mathematics, or working out the specifics of complex calculations with any practical point in mind. He denigrates large areas of the field. Numbers are important to him, much of the reality of mathematics and geometry was not.
Lykourgos posted:elemennop posted:no he was talking about theoretical mathematics, look up platonism in the theory of mathematics. it's one of the 2 major competing theories in mathematics. plato had a lot to say about mathematics.
Which is why you will be quoting or giving a citation to Plato, where he had a "a lot to say" about mathematics. Plato was interested in numbers as part of his theory of being, knowledge, and logic. I don't see Plato doing applied mathematics, or working out the specifics of complex calculations with any practical point in mind. He denigrates large areas of the field. Numbers are important to him, much of the reality of mathematics and geometry was not.
why are you still talking about applied mathematics when elemeno just said it was theoretical
Lykourgos posted:elemennop posted:no he was talking about theoretical mathematics, look up platonism in the theory of mathematics. it's one of the 2 major competing theories in mathematics. plato had a lot to say about mathematics.
Which is why you will be quoting or giving a citation to Plato, where he had a "a lot to say" about mathematics. Plato was interested in numbers as part of his theory of being, knowledge, and logic. I don't see Plato doing applied mathematics, or working out the specifics of complex calculations with any practical point in mind. He denigrates large areas of the field. Numbers are important to him, much of the reality of mathematics and geometry was not.
that is mathematics you fucking idiot
elemennop posted:that is mathematics you fucking idiot
Not in high school, which is how this whole conversation started, "you fucking idiot"
Did you really just start an argument about high school mathematics and then complain when I pointed out that Plato doesn't give a shit about a tonne of what is taught in those classes, and that your quote from Plato has little to do about it. What you're talking about wouldn't even be regarded as that field by Plato or Aristotle.
Lykourgos posted:elemennop posted:that is mathematics you fucking idiot
Not in high school, which is how this whole conversation started, "you fucking idiot"
even in american highschool you are given an axiomatic treatment of planar euclidean geometry. they even have you do "two column" proofs, which are pretty much straight from euclid's elements.
Lykourgos posted:I've never taken a geometry class in an American high school. Plato really wasn't a big math man so easy does it
Lykourgos posted:elemennop posted:that is mathematics you fucking idiot
Not in high school, which is how this whole conversation started, "you fucking idiot"
Did you really just start an argument about high school mathematics and then complain when I pointed out that Plato doesn't give a shit about a tonne of what is taught in those classes, and that your quote from Plato has little to do about it. What you're talking about wouldn't even be regarded as that field by Plato or Aristotle.
yes it does, have you opened Euclid in your life? Read Diophantus?
elemennop posted:Lykourgos posted:elemennop posted:that is mathematics you fucking idiot
Not in high school, which is how this whole conversation started, "you fucking idiot"
even in american highschool you are given an axiomatic treatment of planar euclidean geometry. they even have you do "two column" proofs, which are pretty much straight from euclid's elements.
They have you do a lot of things, you just started one conversation and then went off to the side and decided I'm an idiot because I didn't predict your side-track. For the ancients math is going to be arithmetic and geometry, and its use is often going to be practical and shunned.
If you want to quote Plato or some ancient, at least keep in that line of thinking, otherwise you're just misusing him.
Lykourgos posted:elemennop posted:Lykourgos posted:elemennop posted:that is mathematics you fucking idiot
Not in high school, which is how this whole conversation started, "you fucking idiot"
even in american highschool you are given an axiomatic treatment of planar euclidean geometry. they even have you do "two column" proofs, which are pretty much straight from euclid's elements.
They have you do a lot of things, you just started one conversation and then went off to the side and decided I'm an idiot because I didn't predict your side-track. For the ancients math is going to be arithmetic and geometry, and its use is often going to be practical and shunned.
If you want to quote Plato or some ancient, at least keep in that line of thinking, otherwise you're just misusing him.
socrates, plato, and aristotle all had high regard of mathematics, i have no idea what you're talking about. not to mention the impact Euclid, Diophantus, and Pythagorus had on history.
roseweird posted:when plato talks about the shoemaker he's talking about you
haha what, that doesn't make sense in the slightest. Plato would appreciate me as a gentleman, and we would have many fruitful conversations and benefit society. I'm not a cordwainer and Plato would never refer to me as such, that's ridiculous. America is a classless society in the sense that people actually think like you
elemennop posted:like at no point am i talking about engineering or the such, i am talking about pure mathematics, and have always been. you seem to be ignorant of what mathematics is.
You started a conversation out about high school math and quoted the classics, so I went down the road of what sort of math you study in high school, and what the ancients would have considered that field of knowledge. Then you go and put everything like ontology and logic under this over-arching term mathematics, which nobody in high school, nor Plato or Aristotle, did, and act like somehow I'm the one doing something wrong.
Lykourgos posted:elemennop posted:like at no point am i talking about engineering or the such, i am talking about pure mathematics, and have always been. you seem to be ignorant of what mathematics is.
You started a conversation out about high school math and quoted the classics, so I went down the road of what sort of math you study in high school, and what the ancients would have considered that field of knowledge. Then you go and put everything like ontology and logic under this over-arching term mathematics, which nobody in high school, nor Plato or Aristotle, did, and act like somehow I'm the one doing something wrong.
yes, as i've said, even american highschool is inspired by classical prussian gymnasiusms. that's why you study "theoretical" geometry in american highschools.
elemennop posted:yes, as i've said, even american highschool is inspired by classical prussian gymnasiusms. that's why you study "theoretical" geometry in american highschools.
Right, because you study ontology and logic in American high school geometry class. Because high school geometry is actually all about metaphysics.
What I recall having to study in geometry is how physical objects are measured and represented on paper, how to calculate angles and sizes, how to find missing angles and other measurements by using measurements already known, and then using that to go in a practical direction so that you can solve physical problems. It focused on measuring the physical world in high school. Plato was not given to that, deal with it, going further in that direction and calculating the arc of rockets or how long a ladder has to be to bridge a gap was not the focus of Plato.
Edited by Lykourgos ()
but, take care lykourgos, for using the downvote button itself can be a whinge if not done correctly
roseweird posted:Lykourgos posted:roseweird you are taking being wrong really poorly. its unseemly. With altars, national celebrations, and countless traditions, Prometheus is perhaps bigger than jesus(!)
he was at best a noncanonical saint in modern terms, hardly a hekate or a hermes or even a herakles or asklepios in stature. he was a titan, so an immortal, but in his religious significance he was not worshipped but was a renegade priest, a sinner against the gods, and a sacrifice—according to your sources livers were not sacrificed in his name, but sacrificed as symbolic representations of his liver, to appease the anger of the gods at his inventions (he was fire's inventor). and he was forgotten altogether by the entire western world until the renaissance, when goethe and then shelley had crushes on him. in the considerable corpus of syncretic hellenistic magic at the end of the pagan era he makes no appearances whatsoever. are you really a neopagan, lol, bc this kind of shallow and wishful approach is the reason that despite my theological agreement with the majority of them i would much rather go to a church or synagogue than actually spend my time with neopagan pseudointellectuals. you can do that here, btw, today prometheus is worshipped at the "shrine of prometheus" in new york, which is a group of nerds who meet at a greasy diner once per month. all hail the fire thief *flicks a bic*
i cant believe im even arguing about this lmao i'm just tired of your posture as a racist classicist with Opinions About Americans, you're bad at classics and you should probably never leave england again and have you considered giving up law, going on the dole, and spending your life in quiet contemplation of your own personal shortcomings
In Greek myth, Prometheus himself created Mankind from clay, and was a culture hero who brought civilization, knowledge and salvation to Humanity. in other words--a scrub, a n00b, a nobody