#161
tardy on these heaters
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he seems to have gotten his shit together a little bit though good for him

wasn't he like ostracized from wddp? im sure that helped a lot
#162
Online
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i think he was banned from postgarden during the anime wars
#163
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HenryKrinkle posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

here is why identity politics suck

http://shakesville.tumblr.com/

because it's responsible for the atomized and prissy version of Newspeak we're getting lumbered with

yeah we've already distinguished tumblr slap fights as counter-productive and objectively stupid.



that's like saying that liberalism is great except for the journalists and politicians who keep letting it down

#164
hi
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we obviously are arguing over two v. different things. where's evilweasel when you need him.
#165
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lol

basically i'm just not sure what committed identity politics is meant to achieve. It seems to be the opposite of solidarity and also dovetails tremendously well with individualistic philosophies about Choice and such
#166
D.C.
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It's meant the achieve the particular goals of one or several segments of the community. One first step is establishing that the segment actually exists and that it's members have an interest in collective action. Of course it is the opposite of solidarity, but then that's not much of a criticism.

I'm just assuming identity politics just means black people working together though, if there's some other secret definition please share
#167
hi
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in my view, identity politics is an admittedly pragmatic solution to the problems facing oppressed groups. a certain sector of the population that is treated like shit by society for unjust reasons unites and agitates for better conditions of life. often they lean towards reformist and incrementalist, even accommodationist, approaches. they may allow themselves to be co-opted into the power structure in exchange for certain concessions. they may neglect progressive causes that are outside their "realm," so-to-speak. and--of course--they may be a constant source of bickering and "oppression olympics."

the fact of the matter is that revolutionaries should never write off the initial grievances of these groups no matter how counter-productive different forms of identity politics may seem. for example, all the tumblring in the world shouldn't distract us from the fact that transpeople face very real discrimination in employment and health coverage.
#168
tardy on these heaters
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
#169
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Squalid posted:

It's meant the achieve the particular goals of one or several segments of the community. One first step is establishing that the segment actually exists and that it's members have an interest in collective action. Of course it is the opposite of solidarity, but then that's not much of a criticism.

I'm just assuming identity politics just means black people working together though, if there's some other secret definition please share



hmmm i wonder if malcolm x, huey newton or martin luther king would consider themselves practitioners of 'identity politics'

i certainly think they'd be dismayed at the ease with which proponents of gay marriage (of all things) have used said politics to position themselves on a similar moral level.

#170
California
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the oppression olympics, which used to just be a figure of speech, are literally being held in 2014
#171
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and now that the bar has been lowered, MRA has become the next big front in social justice

hooray!
#172
Mike Nelson here.
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Skylark posted:

the oppression olympics, which used to just be a figure of speech, are literally being held in 2014

lol

#173
D.C.
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Is identity politics only something oppressed people can engage in? Can we say that the Klan is participating in White identity politics? Does anybody actually claim to be an Identity Politician?

If it's just an insult why are we even engaging with the term
#174
Online
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Ironicwarcriminal posted:

hmmm i wonder if malcolm x, huey newton or martin luther king would consider themselves practitioners of 'identity politics'

i think that would seriously understate the breadth of what they worked for

#175
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ilmdge posted:

EmanuelaOrlandi posted:

identity politics something something genderqueer something something marx tumblr diaper shitting intersectionality poc women poors something something tumblr

http://dotcommunism.tumblr.com/post/57780494234/sometimesman-if-all-else-being-equal-and


The first time I found a Team Fortress 2 thread on 4chan’s yaoi board , I was amazed.

As an online multiplayer-only, plotless, mindlessly-violent first-person-shooter, I had assumed that the female fanbase would be limited; confined mostly to diehard first-person-shooter (FPS) enthusiasts, a subset of games with few female devotees. Fewer in number than female WoW players, or Harry Potter readers, certainly. Despite this, the vast majority of the TF2 fanart posters—and artists—seemed to be women. Weirder still, not all of them even played the game, and very few of them played the game regularly. This was stunning. It was as if I had happened upon a cargo cult—imagine someone showing up to a Star Trek convention with exquisite Spock fan art and a beautiful costume, having never watched the show.

Weirder still, the characters were drawn “realistically”, with scars, imperfections, body hair and normally sized penises—that last being incredibly rare, in what I’ve seen of the highly-idealized, manga-influenced genre of yaoi as a whole. The TF2 images were shocking, just in how far they strayed from accepted standards of fanart—many of the pictures were humorous, charming, and deeply characterized. The goal of the images was the same as any other—to arouse, entertain, and/or titillate—but the methods seemed far removed from the oceans of anime-eyed Draco Malfoys stiffly fucking idealized Ron Weasleys, and the Dragonball gigantism foot fetish pinups.

I wasn’t on 4chan long before someone dropped a link to TF2chan.net—the imageboard forum where TF2 fans had set themselves up purely to produce and consume content about the game. And most of them, I quickly learned, were heterosexual women in their twenties. Which is true for the vast majority of fandom participants, across all franchises, as Henry Jenkins has pointed out.

I was amazed. This was something different. The TF2chan posters appeared to be pickier, less forgiving. The images themselves—porn though they may be—were being held to a higher standard, giving a sense of production values to material that was usually treated with far less consideration.

#176
UNUSUALY COOL
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#177
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The post about Pyro sure was interesting. But it bothers me people rarely take into account other genders. Why couldn't Pyro be something else than male or female? A genderqueer? Transgender? Hermaphrodite? I think it's more likely than Pyro being a woman.

Asked by Anonymous

I wonder why this posted without a response.

Trans, genderqueer, and intersexed Pyros are not unusual in fanart and fanfic at all. If you’re asking why your average nerd looks at Pyro in terms of male vs. female, remember that many of them are people who can’t handle having a woman’s voice on their mic chat. Their concepts of gender and sex are incredibly regressive.
#178
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Squalid posted:

Is identity politics only something oppressed people can engage in? Can we say that the Klan is participating in White identity politics? Does anybody actually claim to be an Identity Politician?

If it's just an insult why are we even engaging with the term



recently seen a doc. on the KKK and they have been rebranding their image and borrowing language from other ID political movements. it's kind of funny, they are claiming to be the only group standing against the erosion of white rights in areas that have been decimated by neoliberalism. without question the KKK would function as a ID political movement and that just highlights how worthless the term Identity Politics is if it's just a general umbrella to describe every single political struggle that has ever existed. it's much better suited as a pejorative, due to how it's used colloquially in media vernacular to reference political struggles that have already been coopted and sold in cosmopolitan magazine or sold in urban outfitters as a slogan on a t-shirt.

#179
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Squalid posted:

Is identity politics only something oppressed people can engage in? Can we say that the Klan is participating in White identity politics? Does anybody actually claim to be an Identity Politician?

If it's just an insult why are we even engaging with the term


i think identity politics is too intertwined with the individualism of liberalism to be associated with neo-fascists like modern klutzers, and the original kkk were defending an economic order rather than "whiteness".

#180
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the Klan maybe not, but MRA can probably make a legit claim to oppressed group status
#181
tardy on these heaters
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congratulations on reading page 5 of this thread
#182
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
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heres the problem: if you address and ameliorate the actual individual, discrete, atomized complaints and demands of Identity Politikkkers before (or instead of) actually attaining Full COmmunism, they will no longer have any reason or incentive to remain radicalized against Capitalist society, and they will simply tip their fedoras, thank you for your time+energy+limited revolutionary resources, bid you adeiu, and become the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies

HenryKrinkle posted:

the fact of the matter is that revolutionaries should never write off the initial grievances of these groups no matter how counter-productive different forms of identity politics may seem.



youre right.rather than ignore them we should instead promise them the world while paying nothing but the absolute minimum lip service to their individual and thus entirely trivial concerns, and use them as cannon fodder and useful idiots in our larger collective struggle. A rising tide lifts all shits, as they say

#183
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Ironicwarcriminal posted:

lol

basically i'm just not sure what committed identity politics is meant to achieve. It seems to be the opposite of solidarity and also dovetails tremendously well with individualistic philosophies about Choice and such



as far as i can tell, recruitment

#184
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not sure if superabound is being ironic but that's what i think 100%. gays in western europe have it pretty good, any residual hostility towards them will be overcome in time with changes in public perception rather than by political action so there is no need to expend any effort on their part except in as much as it helps achieve other leftist goals. how about a huge tariff imposed on imports from repressive governments like china? if an LGBT group has no opinion on this policy (whether support or criticism) it's not leftist and should be viewed as an enemy.
#185
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ok, all identity-based groups are now our enemies
#186
sup b*tch
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does anybody else find the term "fandom" to be extremely irritating
#187
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*raises hoof*
#188
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VoxNihili posted:

ok, all identity-based groups are now our enemies



i really don't see how the gay rights movement has anything about them that is intrinsically leftist or collective at all.

lest we forget amongst all the lofty rhetoric, but they're primarily agitating for the right to participate fully in the suburban asset-and-status-aquisition process that is the backbone of American capitalism....the only long March these revolutionaries will be enduring is the one that they have to spend feigning interest in their neighbors talk of college basketball.

#189
Online
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Ironicwarcriminal posted:

VoxNihili posted:

ok, all identity-based groups are now our enemies

i really don't see how the gay rights movement has anything about them that is intrinsically leftist or collective at all.

lest we forget amongst all the lofty rhetoric, but they're primarily agitating for the right to participate fully in the suburban asset-and-status-aquisition process that is the backbone of American capitalism....

see: edith windsor

#190
[account deactivated]
#191
tardy on these heaters
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roseweird posted:

i hate when you people talk about "identity politics"



i hate it when you talk about anything at all

#192
[account deactivated]
#193
Mike Nelson here.
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tom that's actually a compliment coming from someone who listens to andrew dice clay records for his material.
#194
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Superabound posted:

heres the problem: if you address and ameliorate the actual individual, discrete, atomized complaints and demands of Identity Politikkkers before (or instead of) actually attaining Full COmmunism, they will no longer have any reason or incentive to remain radicalized against Capitalist society, and they will simply tip their fedoras, thank you for your time+energy+limited revolutionary resources, bid you adeiu, and become the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies

HenryKrinkle posted:

the fact of the matter is that revolutionaries should never write off the initial grievances of these groups no matter how counter-productive different forms of identity politics may seem.



youre right.rather than ignore them we should instead promise them the world while paying nothing but the absolute minimum lip service to their individual and thus entirely trivial concerns, and use them as cannon fodder and useful idiots in our larger collective struggle. A rising tide lifts all shits, as they say



except that while still under capitalism that is kind of impossible to accomplish, you know, due to the internal contradictions and all

#195
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like i dunno if you realize it but a lot of these "identity politic" complaints are rooted in very legitimate instances of class-power dynamics where women, gays, trans, and most importantly Skaters, are secondary citizens and the way the concerns of these groups are "ameliorated" is just allowing a gay woman the 'honor' of serving in the marine corps and ending up a rape victim
#196
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roseweird posted:

i hate when you people talk about "identity politics"



what do you mean by 'you people'?

#197
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the issue you brought up is a big concern for any political struggle, even ones that could be thought of as Authentic Revolutionary Praxis, anointed by the Holy trinity of Marx-Engels-Trotsky. the issue is too complicated &convoluted for these dumb generalizations and empty signifiers like "Identity Politics" -- which was kind of my initial complaint about this thread defending the term. nobody knows what the hell it's referring to
#198
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AmericanNazbro posted:

like i dunno if you realize it but a lot of these "identity politic" complaints are rooted in very legitimate instances of class-power dynamics where women, gays, trans, and most importantly Skaters, are secondary citizens and the way the concerns of these groups are "ameliorated" is just allowing a gay woman the 'honor' of serving in the marine corps and ending up a rape victim



or allowing a mediocre empty suit like Obama to become president i guess

#199
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also, I'm gay.
#200
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Ironicwarcriminal posted:

AmericanNazbro posted:

like i dunno if you realize it but a lot of these "identity politic" complaints are rooted in very legitimate instances of class-power dynamics where women, gays, trans, and most importantly Skaters, are secondary citizens and the way the concerns of these groups are "ameliorated" is just allowing a gay woman the 'honor' of serving in the marine corps and ending up a rape victim

or allowing a mediocre empty suit like Obama to become president i guess



no, i'm pretty sure that means racism is over in America and liberals did it. We did it everybody! Thank you ron paul for splitting the republican vote, couldn't have ended racism without the instrumental libertarian movement.