#241
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#242
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Bicameralism is widely discredited though. At best it's a funny weird book for peacocking hot critical theory chicks.

Cheers.
#243
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#244
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#245
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#246
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#247
mt.real
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COINTELBRO posted:

Bicameralism is widely discredited though. At best it's a funny weird book for peacocking hot critical theory chicks.

Cheers.


i do that by posting on the rhizzone, obviously

#248
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#249
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
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swampman posted:

has anyone mentioned julian jaynes yet in connection to this discussion? roseweird I encourage you to read The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. In it jaynes seeks to uncover the biological and anthropological origins of thinking to discover what it is exactly. In a shell, ancient man didnt think, but used symbols to evoke auditory hallucinations to "think" for them; first these symbols might be a shrine to a chieftan, later they are written words (this is what jaynes claims over the course of book). Someone stole my copy so if anyone has a hidden pdf thanks.



the best part of this is that he argued this was the case as recent as 1000 BC, most likely between massive bong rips

#250
Poronto
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if you met a man with a bicameral mind.....How could you tell? What a mindfuck
#251
Poronto
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although if you could somehow hypnotize or drug yourself into perceiving all your higher raticionatory functions as auditory hallucinations unequivocally telling you "It's not a good idea to move halfway across the world to be with a woman you've only known a few months" or "There is something up with all these late nights at the library" you'd be a lot happier
#252
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#253
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that's what schizophrenia is, which i think is central to his argument?
#254
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anyways, conciousness is material. language effects material action, and by reading my post i have invaded your brain its pretty cool. maybe i should read more wittgenstein but frankly anything to do with language or sociality or emotion is boring to me because i'm a robot.
#255
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also the whole 'redefinition of thought to exclude things that can't be defined/expressed through language' is hilarious to me.
#256
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the gulf between could possibly be expressed and is expressed is inexpressibly wide, and furthermore, you'll find that you change the material by expressing it. and this is too hard to think about.
#257
UNUSUALY COOL
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discipline posted:

I love it when people try and rag on my stance against sex work by telling me to listen to and respect sex workers's experiences. by this they generally mean sex workers on twitter and who have book deals. my best friend works for the polaris project as a late night hotline operator. I laugh in their faces.



I think this is a phenomenon that could stand more widespread critique; I know a white middle class American former escort-service worker whose parents are now subsidizing her arts career and she claims "we are legion", and to her credit she does not think what she did equips her or anyone like her to speak for slaves

#258
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
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NoFreeWill posted:

that's what schizophrenia is, which i think is central to his argument?



and as anyone whos ever spent more than 5 seconds around any unmedicated and profoundly schizophrenic person can tell you, they are DEFINITELY capable of getting their shit together long enough to collaboratively create 100% of all human civilization society and knowledge/successfully raise every child born prior to 1000 BC lol

#259
UNUSUALY COOL
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NoFreeWill posted:

anyways, conciousness is material. language effects material action, and by reading my post i have invaded your brain its pretty cool. maybe i should read more wittgenstein but frankly anything to do with language or sociality or emotion is boring to me because i'm a robot.



Ideally, people should communicate only by injecting each other with drugs that affect neurotransmitters

#260
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
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basically all that any of Jaynes "evidence" proves is that the propensity for schizotypal thinking in popular authors was exactly as ludicrously high in the ancient world as it is today
#261
Nippon
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discipline posted:

I love it when people try and rag on my stance against sex work by telling me to listen to and respect sex workers's experiences. by this they generally mean sex workers on twitter and who have book deals. my best friend works for the polaris project as a late night hotline operator. I laugh in their faces.



just think about the barriers to entry involved in having a twitter account

#262
UNUSUALY COOL
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Goethestein posted:

discipline posted:

I love it when people try and rag on my stance against sex work by telling me to listen to and respect sex workers's experiences. by this they generally mean sex workers on twitter and who have book deals. my best friend works for the polaris project as a late night hotline operator. I laugh in their faces.

just think about the barriers to entry involved in having a twitter account



it is probably a bit of a hassle to sneak sergey's smartphone out of his pocket when your eyes are swollen shut or whatever

#263
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
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"wow, these guys sure had bad eyesight!" --some dumbass quaalude-popping psychologist watching robots unearth the remains of a modern art museum in the year 5025
#264
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#266
Dont Mess With Sucess
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Superabound posted:

NoFreeWill posted:

that's what schizophrenia is, which i think is central to his argument?

and as anyone whos ever spent more than 5 seconds around any unmedicated and profoundly schizophrenic person can tell you, they are DEFINITELY capable of getting their shit together long enough to collaboratively create 100% of all human civilization society and knowledge/successfully raise every child born prior to 1000 BC lol

Kind of like anyone who spend 5 seconds around a termite can tell you they are definitely capable of getting their shit together long enough to build mounds that extend meters above and below the soil and have extensive designated purpose areas like an air conditioned fungus farm

#267
Dont Mess With Sucess
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roseweird posted:

i don't know swampman, i will consider giving it a look, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. i believe thought is much more ancient than humanity, so i don't really think much of any theory that suggests either animals or certain humans "don't think". i agree that words and letters are often simplifications of things like shrines, sacred animals, etc. but i don't see how this supports such broad conclusions about thought

Im asking someone to send you pdf of this book because it heartburns me to see what is 1 of my favorite books, dragged into the dirt, beaten around, licked on, welted, by us talking about it at such a remove. And you will see a much more cogent solid concept than my summary or this thread presents. And even if you are unconvinced I think the ideas in this book are beautiful and are a very unusual way to examine the "self."

#268
Dont Mess With Sucess
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NoFreeWill posted:

that's what schizophrenia is, which i think is central to his argument?

Schizophrenia gets attention in the book, but its much more about symbols being a voice in the absence of the speaker.

we have this highly trained internal monologuing bit of consciousness that speaks to us, shows us pictures, makes us feel all these feelings, explains things, but if one doesn't identify this thing as part of the "self" or under control of the "self," then it gets attributed to other things. so when you see your mom's grave and you hear your mom's voice there's no reason to believe this is a product of your own mind instead of her voice actually being present and speaking to you. from here i think there are so many interesting directions to go and jaynes does take a lot of them... into shared symbols of more specialized meaning provoking shared hallucination, into the standard ancient texts like Iliad being written from the perspective of the "bicameral mind"... It just a cool book

#269
penitent
Post rating: +
mad category errors in this thread
#270
[account deactivated]
#271
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
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swampman posted:

Kind of like anyone who spend 5 seconds around a termite can tell you they are definitely capable of getting their shit together long enough to build mounds that extend meters above and below the soil and have extensive designated purpose areas like an air conditioned fungus farm



oh if only termites could suddenly will some right good consciousness into being, boy theyd tell me whats what

#272
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#273
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#274
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
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did you know that the wind can carve complex mathematic structures through solid rock, creating beautiful flowing sculptures meters above and below the soil? boy that wind sure has its shit together, hes a pretty smart guy
#275
mt.real
Post rating: +

discipline posted:

my engagements with prostitutes on twitter: the australian one who said if women are beaten and raped in prostitution they "don't have the chops" for the job and should probably get out and leave it to the rich white pros ahahahhaa


it's not very fair to prostitutes to lump them in with australians like that, i'm sure the non-australian ones aren't nearly so awful

#276
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
Post rating: ~

swampman posted:

Schizophrenia gets attention in the book, but its much more about symbols being a voice in the absence of the speaker.

we have this highly trained internal monologuing bit of consciousness that speaks to us, shows us pictures, makes us feel all these feelings, explains things, but if one doesn't identify this thing as part of the "self" or under control of the "self," then it gets attributed to other things. so when you see your mom's grave and you hear your mom's voice there's no reason to believe this is a product of your own mind instead of her voice actually being present and speaking to you. from here i think there are so many interesting directions to go and jaynes does take a lot of them... into shared symbols of more specialized meaning provoking shared hallucination, into the standard ancient texts like Iliad being written from the perspective of the "bicameral mind"... It just a cool book



yeah the world is chock full of cool, wrong books

#277
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#278
penitent
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deadken posted:

mad category errors in this thread



i havent read the thread i just like saying that

#279
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deadken posted:

deadken posted:

mad category errors in this thread



i havent read the thread i just like saying that


Ya but it's true

#280
Dont Mess With Sucess
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Superabound posted:

did you know that the wind can carve complex mathematic structures through solid rock, creating beautiful flowing sculptures meters above and below the soil? boy that wind sure has its shit together, hes a pretty smart guy

u = idiat