#1
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Imagine if mankind found a pregnant alien lifeform, then imagine that someone kills the lifeform gestating inside it. Can you imagine the outrage on behalf of scientists and curious liberals? About what a hateful, despicable, monstrous act it was? The outrage and condemnation would be deafening!

Why do we not have the same attitude to human lifeforms?
#2
D.C.
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Why did everybody get upset over some puppy getting thrown off a cliff by our troops after cheering as they slaughtered thousands of civilians? People are weird.
#3
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That’s a great point: if the West shouldn’t engage in imperialist wars then we obviously shouldn’t allow abortion either, agreed.
#4
D.C.
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I was talking to my brother about conservation and I said I'd personally strangle every last Mountain Gorilla if I thought it could save a single human life, even if they are sentient thinking beings just like humans; his reply was that he would rather let a human die than kill even one of our apish relatives. I'm not really sure I was serious, but I know he was.
#5
Post rating: +
scarcity vs abundance
#6
Unapologetic Opponent of Rape
Post rating: +

Squalid posted:

I was talking to my brother about conservation and I said I'd personally strangle every last Mountain Gorilla if I thought it could save a single human life, even if they are sentient thinking beings just like humans; his reply was that he would rather let a human die than kill even one of our apish relatives. I'm not really sure I was serious, but I know he was.

His position is far more morally defensible than yours, hth.

#7
D.C.
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I don't have a strong opinion on abortion, the arguments aren't really about science but more about moral principles. Personally I don't believe in any particular principles although I enjoy sharing them with my community, so I'll just let everyone else figure out if the important thing is a woman's right's, or a baby's life, or the absence of suffering, or the presence of an individual soul. Each argument makes sense to me from it's own perspective, so I don't feel any particular desire to privilege one over another.
#8
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lol @ you libs instantly deflecting to avoid the unpleasant reality that is the industrialized murder of infant human beings
#9
D.C.
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Cycloneboy posted:

Squalid posted:

I was talking to my brother about conservation and I said I'd personally strangle every last Mountain Gorilla if I thought it could save a single human life, even if they are sentient thinking beings just like humans; his reply was that he would rather let a human die than kill even one of our apish relatives. I'm not really sure I was serious, but I know he was.

His position is far more morally defensible than yours, hth.



It doesn't help me at all I'm afraid. Sorry.

#10
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I don't have a strong opinion on Iraq, the arguments aren't really about results but more about moral principles. Personally I don't believe in any particular principles although I enjoy sharing them with my community, so I'll just let everyone else figure out if the important thing is a the West’s freedom from terror, or an Iraqi child’s life, or the absence of interesting war-porn on TV, or the presence of an individual soul. Each argument makes sense to me from it's own perspective, so I don't feel any particular desire to privilege one over another.
#11
objekt-a.tumblr.com
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#12
D.C.
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Ironicwarcriminal posted:

I don't have a strong opinion on Iraq, the arguments aren't really about results but more about moral principles. Personally I don't believe in any particular principles although I enjoy sharing them with my community, so I'll just let everyone else figure out if the important thing is a the West’s freedom from terror, or an Iraqi child’s life, or the absence of interesting war-porn on TV, or the presence of an individual soul. Each argument makes sense to me from it's own perspective, so I don't feel any particular desire to privilege one over another.



Your analogy doesn't make any sense, killing Iraqi children made for terribly dull war-porn. Really didn't realize how boring the Iraq War was until we got all this sweet footage out of Syria this last year. Now that's some good spectacle.

#13
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Squalid posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
I don't have a strong opinion on Iraq, the arguments aren't really about results but more about moral principles. Personally I don't believe in any particular principles although I enjoy sharing them with my community, so I'll just let everyone else figure out if the important thing is a the West’s freedom from terror, or an Iraqi child’s life, or the absence of interesting war-porn on TV, or the presence of an individual soul. Each argument makes sense to me from it's own perspective, so I don't feel any particular desire to privilege one over another.


Your analogy doesn't make any sense, killing Iraqi children made for terribly dull war-porn. Really didn't realize how boring the Iraq War was until we got all this sweet footage out of Syria this last year. Now that's some good spectacle.




It’s fucked how people will happily watch ‘edgy’ war porn from Syria but the liberal media does everything in it’s power to forbid people from seeing the horrors that happen as a result of abortion.

This case in Philadelphia that’s on trial at the moment: a mass murder of children. Compare how much coverage that gets to the murder of children at Sandy Hook,

#14
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Do you know the Gulags?

Gulags were prison camps for political prisoners established by communist governments in the former Soviet Union (and elsewhere).

“(T)he Gulag held political prisoners, a group including not only real opponents of the Soviet regime but also many innocents caught up in the paranoid clutches of the Soviet secret police. Most prisoners were the victims of arbitrary and severe legal campaigns under which petty theft, lateness, or unexcused absences from work were punished by many years in these concentration camps.”

If you disobeyed the dominant culture in any way that displeased the dominant culture, the Government sent you to a brutal prison camp with harsh and often deadly conditions. The Gulag also served the function of “reeducating” these dissidents, so that they may once again become productive members of society.

Show of hands…

How many times has a Queer Person or a Transgender Person or an Ally of a Transgender Person told you that you need more “education” on Transgender Issues, or that if you *knew* a Transgender person, you would “think differently.”

It is a common tactic in Queer activism for Transwomen/Men/Allies to tell Lesbian Activists that Lesbians need “reeducation” to know that Transwomen are actually Women.

This tactic, of “continuously reeducating” a willing flock of lemmings, I’m sorry, ALLIES, through the “check your privilege” Internet Social Justice Culture, is also readily observable any time a Transwoman has hurt feelings (you can page through Laurie Penny’s Twitter to see her grovel for forgiveness every time she’s accidentally concerned about Women’s issues and a Transwoman calls her out for being “transphobic.”).
#15
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stop deflecting or i'm going to start posting pictures of broken fetuses
#16
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Ironicwarcriminal posted:

lol @ you libs instantly deflecting to avoid the unpleasant reality that is the industrialized murder of infant human beings


I think abortion should always be allowed, but sometimes it should also be mandatory such as for down syndrome, FAS, and the congenitally deaf.

#17
Unapologetic Opponent of Rape
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Fetuses prior to the third trimester do not have functional central nervous systems. They cannot think or feel pain, since those capacities come through the CNS. As a consequence, it is not immoral to kill a fetus prior to the third trimester. Hope this helps.
#18
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swirlsofhistory posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
lol @ you libs instantly deflecting to avoid the unpleasant reality that is the industrialized murder of infant human beings

I think abortion should always be allowed, but sometimes it should also be mandatory such as for down syndrome, FAS, and the congenitally deaf.



sweet opinion bro

#19
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Cycloneboy posted:

Fetuses prior to the third trimester do not have functional central nervous systems. They cannot think or feel pain, since those capacities come through the CNS. As a consequence, it is not immoral to kill a fetus prior to the third trimester. Hope this helps.



so you'd be fine with killing the fetus of a newly discovered alien life form half way through gestation

that is Fucked, the Hell Up

#20
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IAmA Broken Phoetus, AMA!
#21
Unapologetic Opponent of Rape
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Ironicwarcriminal posted:

so you'd be fine with killing the fetus of a newly discovered alien life form half way through gestation

that is Fucked, the Hell Up

With the consent of the mother? If we knew that alien fetuses were analagous to human fetuses in this way? Absolutely.

#22
Unapologetic Opponent of Rape
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Mods, change my name to Alien Fetus Killerboy.
#23
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‘yeah man, like the coverage of our wars of aggression is so sanitized, if people saw the images of the children who suffered from US bombs they’d better know the human cost of the violent policies they vote for and things would change”

*someone holds pictures of aborted foetuses outside clinic*

“RAGH STOP THIS EMOTION BLACKMAIL, STOP INTIMIDATING WOMEN!!!!”
#24
Nippon
Post rating: +
what if the alien was sentient and asked to have its baby aborted. single mom from the stars, starring Mo'Nique as Laquanda Xzyqrt
#25
D.C.
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What if you could kill them without causing pain even after they had developed that capacity? Would there be any issue with abortion after the third trimester?
#26
Unapologetic Opponent of Rape
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Squalid posted:

What if you could kill them without causing pain even after they had developed that capacity? Would there be any issue with abortion after the third trimester?

Thinking is an important element of personhood.

#27
Nippon
Post rating: +
abortion is green. the average first world child sliding out of a womb should be seen as a slimy torrential flood of styrofoam being released over a wetlands
#28
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Cycloneboy posted:

Squalid posted:

What if you could kill them without causing pain even after they had developed that capacity? Would there be any issue with abortion after the third trimester?

Thinking is an important element of personhood.



agreed, ergo if people are asleep it's fine to kill them because they have no cognitive reasoning or thought

#29
D.C.
Post rating: +
Really I find pain a pretty lame threshold for abortion anyway. Nobody cries over the pain slaughtered animals experience, certainly most commercially raised livestock have greater capacity for reasoning than 1 year old infants. It's not their capacity to suffer that restrains us from infanticide.

edit: ah excuse me, most people don't cry. Sorry, I don't generally ascribe personhood to animal rights activists

Edited by Squalid ()

#30
Unapologetic Opponent of Rape
Post rating: ~

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

Cycloneboy posted:

Squalid posted:

What if you could kill them without causing pain even after they had developed that capacity? Would there be any issue with abortion after the third trimester?

Thinking is an important element of personhood.

agreed, ergo if people are asleep it's fine to kill them because they have no cognitive reasoning or thought

First of all, sleeping people do think. Second of all, it's very different to permanently end a person that exists than it is to prevent a potentiality. Every time I jerk off on my bedsheets, I'm preventing the birth of a whole bunch of potential babies. Every time I don't have PIV sex, same thing.

#31
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Use tissues you gross fuck
#32
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Ironicwarcriminal posted:

stop deflecting or i'm going to start posting pictures of broken fetuses



lol oh no anything but that

#33
D.C.
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Yeah honestly IWC i don't know if you have these guys in Australia but anybody who attended University in America had to walk past giant posters of dead fetuses everyday just to go to class. You'd have as much luck grossing us out posting goatse
#34
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Thinking doesn't take place in the brain even if a brain is necessary to think. Thinking comes after learning to communicate. It takes baby some time around others before it can think. But there are things babies do that we readily recognize as being upset or hungry or happy.

Fetuses look weird until a little while before they get born. We couldn't see them before medical technology without cutting them out, so unlike newborns it's hard to recognize motions or reactions that look like human ones in ultrasounds. For that reason I have difficulty attributing qualities of personhood to them.
#35
[account deactivated]
#36
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Been having a discussion on IRC about this. Oswald Spengler was a great guy generally, Decline of the West stomps any McCaine blogpost. However there's one thing I'm not sure about. Hitler recognized that there were no pure races, but claimed that race is a feeling. Spengler talks about race-feeling too, and that's were we disagree.

There are always going to be Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold types who don't have race feeling as far as anyone can tell. Does this make them not white? No thats ridiculous, they're still white. Race-feeling is an extremely koombyah idea, once you accept it then everyone can attend your nazi rallies if they feel white today.
#37
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Ironicwarcriminal posted:

Can you imagine the outrage on behalf of scientists and curious liberals?

you don't get to speak for the curious liberals

#38
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swirlsofhistory posted:

Thinking doesn't take place in the brain even if a brain is necessary to think. Thinking comes after learning to communicate. It takes baby some time around others before it can think. But there are things babies do that we readily recognize as being upset or hungry or happy.

Fetuses look weird until a little while before they get born. We couldn't see them before medical technology without cutting them out, so unlike newborns it's hard to recognize motions or reactions that look like human ones in ultrasounds. For that reason I have difficulty attributing qualities of personhood to them.



Ok well in that case you’ll have no problem with laws requiring women seeking an abortion to see ultrasounds of the beings growing inside them

#39
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +
due to extreme social isolation and perhaps sexual inexperience i always thought that like the first trimester was like tiny cell-like thing and then like it took off in the second trimester and then became more babylike in the third trimester. jesus christ was i wrong. i saw my sister at 10 weeks pregnant and she was full-on baby-inside-her pregnant. at 12 weeks or whatever she sent me an ultrasound and you could see the baby's brain and shit. i felt like liberals had been lying to me my whole life about this.

i don't really care if a random non-related-to-me baby dies, or even most people for that matter, i'm not even really sold on the idea of murder being illegal, but that shit is killing a baby, own up to it ladies.
#40
[account deactivated]