#601
mt.real
Post rating: ~

Crow posted:

why is this always put in terms of like, condemnation of the woman's situation as an ethical violation? each time, it is always the perpetrators that are made invisible: the men. the original article/interview that started this thread: you see the exact same thing: a total disavowal of men. like, it talks about how the enemy arent the prostitutes (no shit!), the enemy are the police (and what gender are the worst offenders?? the same gender that has 2-4 times the rates of domestic abuse versus the population?), as an amorphous ghost entity, and of course not the pimps (mostly men) or the johns. it even advances radical feminists as the enemy. good lord.

that's the whole point of the radical feminists position: it's an analysis of how women are reduced to mere sexual bodies by men and by the market. why ignore that? why focus on the moral dilemma of the prostitute's "decisions"? When will men get their day in the sun? Are we not Men? We are devo!


yeah ok this is a really good point. i am sorry for fixating on one side of it. i think the men that are paying money for camgirls are shit, and so are johns. etc.

#602
mt.real
Post rating: ~
i read "is this a disease of society" or whatever, earlier, and thought the topic was women making the choice to do it rather than the men who choose to fund it extensively. maybe i made that assumption because i am privileged and am used to people making all the choices themselves as to exactly what they want to be doing

and/or there is that weirdness of the modern internet where those men seem practically invisible, the money changes hands in this tidy nonhuman ether
#603
Post rating: +
and that's great that she's making the money, but it doesn't matter to the men who 1) watch, 2) who make ad revenue/adware $$$, 3) poor women who sell their bodies and give most of it to pimps, etc. it's like, since we like to try to link prostitutes to other labor around here so much, that's great that so-and-so factory worker is making $40/hr + overtime for making parts for a weapons manufacturer, but his part is part of the much, much larger scheme in which people live in hellish conditions, barely surviving just enough to reproduce more of their class. that's what you're talking about with patriarchy, a system where women and men reproduce the subjugation of women (and men, in many ways, but especially women).

but the only way you can reduce sex work to any other work in a capitalist system is by completely ignoring the patriarchal system, in any form.
#604
Post rating: ~

SariBari posted:

an industry drug abuse rate of 95%.


Now where are you getting those types of numbers?

#605
Post rating: +

drwhat posted:

SariBari posted:

this isn't a question of redrawing the socioeconomic framework to help women in the future. she exists now, and in her judgement it is, for now, an option that allows her some financial independence and therefore some control over her own life.

and i think it's a little insulting that you are basically saying that every woman who masturbates in front of a camera is just an economic slump away from taking cocks in every hole for cash. that isn't true.



first of all let's be clear, i never advocated that she take a minimum wage job. be genuine and deal with ME here, not some radical feminist construct you have in your mind. second, she doesn't control her life. men who tip her in myfreecam tips or cash control her life. you say this is about the necessity of the moment and that's spot on; in the necessity of the moment her male friend is okay with it because she is simply surviving and it seems to be of little consequence that in the meantime it's denying her a lack of "legitimate" work history and setting a terrible precedent for women's labor options in general.

with that in mind, when life happens in a more trying way in the future and when her face and body begin to sag, what will she do? you didn't answer my question there. you just attempted to make me seem "insulting" when all i did is say "in my experience with sex workers..." which is so far away from saying every woman who masturbates in front of a cam is going to end up being a street prostitute but it doesn't seem to matter to you that my own experience and the studies on sex workers do in fact say that it is very difficult to just do modeling, etc without an eventual exchange of sex.

i see your post about guys who pay for cams above and appreciate that. gotta sleep now but will def catch up tomorrow.

#606
Post rating: ~

drwhat posted:

maybe i made that assumption because i am privileged and am used to people making all the choices themselves as to exactly what they want to be doing



back for a moment. yes yes yes. this is what the op article is about and discipline's very good blog on the article is about: neoliberal atomization. i have worked it out for myself, so it's alllllll good.

#607
mt.real
Post rating: +

SariBari posted:

first of all let's be clear, i never advocated that she take a minimum wage job. be genuine and deal with ME here, not some radical feminist construct you have in your mind. second, she doesn't control her life. men who tip her in myfreecam tips or cash control her life. you say this is about the necessity of the moment and that's spot on; in the necessity of the moment her male friend is okay with it because she is simply surviving and it seems to be of little consequence that in the meantime it's denying her a lack of "legitimate" work history and setting a terrible precedent for women's labor options in general.

with that in mind, when life happens in a more trying way in the future and when her face and body begin to sag, what will she do?


i wasn't saying that you said she should take a min wage job, but that was what she was doing before and seems like the most likely outcome if she wasn't doing this.

and yes, she doesn't control her life in the sense that she is using money from other people, just like all of us (except i guess the independent farmers of rhizzone) but she is able to make some decisions about it like where would i like to live and what would i like to eat etc.

i don't think "it's a bad precedent for women's labour" is a practical consideration.

but yes, what will she do in the future is, i agree. it certainly seems better to get out sooner rather than later. thank you for helping me get my head around some of this.

#608
Post rating: +

MadMedico posted:

SariBari posted:

an industry drug abuse rate of 95%.

Now where are you getting those types of numbers?



hey man, remember when i posted that book about how native women were trafficked since the very foundation of the american colonies? it got me kinda thinking: it seems like you didn't read any of it! Also, it's kinda weird, how you continuously try to undermine people who try to link up the historical oppression of women with modern prostitution: without providing any facts. kinda weird! If I didn't know any better, it would seem like you refuse to jet your chauvinist attitude, or at least recognize women's systemic oppression! O well, i'm sure it's nothing . . . plus who could possibly doubt received narratives about women wanting nothing better than to be at men's beck and call, not to mention their money! Ooo girl we gonna go shopping!



Anyway, if you had read that lil ole book I posted, you'd see:

312. In one study, the federal government determined that 85% of women
arrested for prostitution in twenty-four cities tested positive for drugs. See U.S. DEP’T OF JUSTICE, FACT SHEET: DRUG-RELATED CRIME 2 (1994).



o well, maybe you missed the book when I first posted it! Because I know you care so much about the issue, and just want to get to the bottom of this horrible issue for women everywhere, I'll link ya again: http://www.wmitchell.edu/lawreview/documents/8.Deer.pdf

#609
Post rating: +
Consider your self own ed.
#610
Post rating: ~

Crow posted:

MadMedico posted:

SariBari posted:

an industry drug abuse rate of 95%.

Now where are you getting those types of numbers?

Anyway, if you had read that lil ole book I posted, you'd see:

312. In one study, the federal government determined that 85% of women
arrested for prostitution in twenty-four cities tested positive for drugs. See U.S. DEP’T OF JUSTICE, FACT SHEET: DRUG-RELATED CRIME 2 (1994).



Well those are prostitutes. I was asking porn stars which I assumed Sari was referring to in her statistics.

#611
Poronto
Post rating: ~
"queer" porn, "feminist" porn, "empowering" porn
#612
Post rating: ~

MadMedico posted:

Crow posted:

MadMedico posted:

SariBari posted:

an industry drug abuse rate of 95%.

Now where are you getting those types of numbers?

Anyway, if you had read that lil ole book I posted, you'd see:

312. In one study, the federal government determined that 85% of women
arrested for prostitution in twenty-four cities tested positive for drugs. See U.S. DEP’T OF JUSTICE, FACT SHEET: DRUG-RELATED CRIME 2 (1994).


Well those are prostitutes. I was asking porn stars which I assumed Sari was referring to in her statistics.



waiting to use the shower so not asleep yet. GOT DAMNNNNNN are you serious? porn stars ARE prostitutes, not all prostitutes are porn stars. i fucking hate doing homework for men like you but please read mackinnon's "pornography as trafficking" by the university of michigan if you give a fuck after you shoot your load at the image of a woman who is being paid for sex on camera but it somehow still not a prostitute???

#613
Poronto
Post rating: ~
wait should pornography actually be banned is that what we're driving at here
#614
Post rating: +
Porn stars outright prostitute on the side. i don't know what you're askin bro. Bro. Get at me with your theories bro. Pornstars prostitute on teh side bro.
#615
Post rating: +
it's not my JOB to educate you
#616
Post rating: +

littlegreenpills posted:

wait should pornography actually be banned is that what we're driving at here



Hm lets look at the koran. UH YEA. Wow lets look at the holey bible........Yep. Lets look at Research. Hell to the yes.

#617
Poronto
Post rating: ~
wht abt gay porn
#618
Post rating: ~

Keven posted:

it's not my JOB to educate you men who are so obvious in your fear of having your whores taken away or your consumption of them questioned





#619
Post rating: +
This is why I hate when people pull out "patronizing" and "privilege" to dismiss correct arguments. This is a fundamental attack on the truth itself and any political action. It is not patronizing to dispel reification and it is not privileged to fight the system of exploitation and barbarity that is capitalism, even if people get in your way. Yes, some women justify the horrific situation of having to sell your body to survive. Some women even turn it into a progressive cause to cope. This does not make it correct, and the task of scientific marxists is to uncover the truth and not pussyfoot around liberalism, religion, fetishism and untruth as some weak minded people would do under the veneer of "checking privilege" or whatever.
#620
Post rating: +
oh my god why are we having another porn is great thread. why
#621
Post rating: +
i dont know what happened but BAN GOATSTEIN
#622
Post rating: ~
in a communist society nobody would make porn because we'd all be happily fucking eachother. and so on ansoforth.
#623
Post rating: ~
Porns really good.
#624
sing hallelujah
Post rating: ~
porno is gaey.
#625
Post rating: ~
masturbating using your imagination is fun but it sometimes feels more shameful since you are 'objectifying' women you know and respect. lol
#626
Post rating: ~

NoFreeWill posted:

masturbating using your imagination is fun but it sometimes feels more shameful since you are 'objectifying' women you know and respect. lol


Except I don't really know Angie Harmon in real life.

#627
Online
Post rating: ~

NoFreeWill posted:

masturbating using your imagination is fun but it sometimes feels more shameful since you are 'objectifying' women you know and respect. lol

pornography? objectifying women you know? there's a third way

#628
[account deactivated]
#629
Post rating: ~
actually theres nothing wrong with objectifying women in your imaginative fantasies but our culture is so sex-negative that it feels like it is worse than looking at porn. that was my point. idk i was raised by real Christians so maybe my experience is different, but there is overlap ironically between Christian anti-masturbation moralism and feminism objectification-shaming as i've experienced it.
#630
Post rating: ~

NoFreeWill posted:

troll shit



our culture is sooooo sex negative and that's why women are used to sell everything and are literally for sale. objectification-shaming ahahahaha. yeah i mean why would an oppressed sex class demand more than being floating anuses, vaginas, and breasts accessible to anyone?

#631
Post rating: ~
not that that's really important in relation to the larger problems of the thread, but i think it's part of the cultural landscape to consider.
#632
Post rating: ~

NoFreeWill posted:

not that that's really important in relation to the larger problems of the thread, but i think it's part of the cultural landscape to consider.



hm yes, i will put men's lack of access to women and their bodies at the top of my list of things to consider in the cultural landscape.

#633
Post rating: ~
my point was that America is both sex-positive and sex-negative at the same time in a radically disturbing way. a significant portion of this country is Christian and exposed to similar propoganda about sex that i was, though probably on a lesser scale/strength. my parents had me read a book about how all masturbation was evil and you couldn't think unclean thoughts about women. all with the intent of preserving your purity until marriage. that these attitudes coexist in a country where sex is used to sell every kind of product imaginable and sex is sold as a product in a variety of forms is interesting to me. i think that the one is the foundation for the other.
#634
sing hallelujah
Post rating: -----
some people work with their backs, some with their hands, some with their brains. some work with their genitals. the notion that it is somehow more exploitative to have sex for a living rather than pick vegetables or wash cars is symptomatic of the anachronistic impulse to treat sex as though it was a thing of some special inherent value rather than just two mammals rubbing together until goo comes out
#635
Post rating: ~
i shouldn't have written our culture, and just said in my experience.
#636
sing hallelujah
Post rating: ~

SariBari posted:

NoFreeWill posted:

troll shit

our culture is sooooo sex negative and that's why women are used to sell everything and are literally for sale. objectification-shaming ahahahaha. yeah i mean why would an oppressed sex class demand more than being floating anuses, vaginas, and breasts accessible to anyone?



women aren't for sale. you can rent their labor for a bit though

#637
Post rating: ~

mongosteen posted:

SariBari posted:

NoFreeWill posted:

troll shit

our culture is sooooo sex negative and that's why women are used to sell everything and are literally for sale. objectification-shaming ahahahaha. yeah i mean why would an oppressed sex class demand more than being floating anuses, vaginas, and breasts accessible to anyone?

women aren't for sale. you can rent their labor for a bit though



come to houston and i'll show you the vietnamese and thai women who live behind locked doors, robber bars, and have to sleep in their massage rooms. they've been sold. they're working off debts, you entitled moron.

#638
sing hallelujah
Post rating: ~
look at how oppressed i, a white heterosexual first worlder from a middle class background am, because strangers are more interested in fucking me than they are in hearing my opinions on film theory. well, not me personally, i'm a grotesque internet ideologue, but rather the class i have chosen with which to associate because it allows for pious indignation in the way that white supremacy does not

now ur being a dick bro

Edited by babyhueypnewton ()

#639
Post rating: +

mongosteen posted:

look at how oppressed i, a white heterosexual first worlder from a middle class background am, because strangers are more interested in fucking me than they are in hearing my opinions on film theory. well, not me personally, i'm a grotesque internet ideologue, but rather the class i have chosen with which to associate because it allows for pious indignation in the way that white supremacy does not



you know nothing about me or my lived experience but you hate that a woman would ever question your whoremongering. you hate all women, regardless of class or location. women's vaginas are gooholes to you. you're not worthy of much but there is a lefty press willing to host your base, hateful opinions instead of the opinions of many women who actually live and have exited the world you romanticize. there is no victim in your world, there are only white saviors because women and children aren't systematically abused by men, it's just their designated station. shut up and take my goo!

#640
Post rating: ~
woman can be purchased as sex slaves pretty much anywhere. umm, check your local craigslist?