#161
the science and art and culture of timbuktu isn't just any art and culture but science and art and culture from a time and place that is routinely accused of having none of the former and little of the latter
#162
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#163
good words for once iwc. there's a deep point that i think can be extended. like, the fetish of experience stands next to the fetish of knowledge and has a sick elitism all of its own. i mean so many of us folks do coke and hang out with friends that we forget we're the topmost stratum, that were somehow more authentic than the timid, the hidden, the homebodies and the downtrodden. we can comprehend the motivations of dudes who trash manuscripts and sleep on the shelves, but discount the very existence of anyone who isn't as interesting as we are. that's where the liberatory value of radical Islam lies imo. don't just burn books, burn bars too. smash the audio tapes and the musical instruments, pour the beer down the drain. that's how the suffering majority will truly be freed
#164
good post, educated people in the west tend to get so far up their own asses that they forget or wilfully ignore the liberatory possibilities of ignorance
#165
That vase dropping mother fucker deserves the death penalty. I unironically support the most severe criminal punishments imaginable where people destroy ancient documents, and on a case by case basis I would further extend that to other, valuable objects.

Burning an ancient manuscript, or what is quite possibly the last copy of an ancient manuscript, is worse than first degree murder. One snuffs out the last voice of a learned gentleman from thousands of years past, and drives modern man further into the dark ages. Smashing a Han vase is obviously a lesser offence, as the vase itself is a lesser product and the creator was probably a lesser person, but nonetheless many ancient objects preserved noble scenes and shapes that our modern minds have difficulty creating.

Every loss inflicts an eternal and unhealing wound on the face of humanity; you cannot give birth to another ancient philosopher, you cannot give birth to another ancient sculptor. I would unironically sign off on the killing of one thousand forums posters before I signed off on the loss of a single sentence from a platonic dialogue.
#166

babyhueypnewton posted:

in countries with such a recent history, culture has to be actively created and the idea of "preservation" of a historical past simply has no meaning in the face of repeated destruction and occupation. preservation is the hobby of the privileged. namdaemun isn't being rebuilt to preserve a historical culture of "korea" but to create one.


i don't understand what you mean by 'preservation of a historical past has no meaning in the face of repeated destruction'. isn't preserving the past the way to begin to understand how, when, and why something was destroyed or altered? otherwise history is, as you say, 'creating a new historical culture', which isn't truthful history at all because it permits all vagaries, prejudices, and hearsay of its creators to run unchecked by the absence of a preserved object

#167
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#168
Herostratos. That is who I am thinking of; Ephesus had the right idea, will China follow suit one day? Ai WeiWei is just Herostratos in miniature, he should be controlled because he obviously is dangerous and irresponsible.
#169
We live in a world where idiotic green-guilt makes people run their cars on food, pat themselves on the back for being socially conscious, and subsequently as food insecurity and malnutrition starts to bite in the world's poorest places they do nothing but say 'oh it's sad, Africa's just got such a bad problem with corruption and governance' and think no more of it.

but when a few bits of paper get burnt then suddenly "The Time To Act Is Now! Send in the Mirage's and the Legion!!!!"

you seriously, honestly, with the best visionary and satirical minds in the world, could not make this shit up.
#170

tpaine posted:

wait isn't this verbatim goatstein's argument in defense of pornography?



I've never read goatstein's argument, but this isn't just pornography we're talking about.

We're discussing something that goes beyond mere base desire, or mass-produced, vulgar portrayals. There is nothing overly unique or valuable about naked individuals; they're everywhere and I doubt they've changed much over the millennia. But, an ancient, that is valuable; short of a time machine, short of a replicate ancient utopia to raise our children in, those ancient people and their words of truth and beauty only exist through the irreplacable commitment of their soul to ancient texts and artwork.

To destroy those is to commit a sin more horrifying than common parricide; it is to attack the very parents of all that is good in us.

#171

swirlsofhistory posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

in countries with such a recent history, culture has to be actively created and the idea of "preservation" of a historical past simply has no meaning in the face of repeated destruction and occupation. preservation is the hobby of the privileged. namdaemun isn't being rebuilt to preserve a historical culture of "korea" but to create one.


i don't understand what you mean by 'preservation of a historical past has no meaning in the face of repeated destruction'. isn't preserving the past the way to begin to understand how, when, and why something was destroyed or altered? otherwise history is, as you say, 'creating a new historical culture', which isn't truthful history at all because it permits all vagaries, prejudices, and hearsay of its creators to run unchecked by the absence of a preserved object



there is no greater, righteous or more noble sight in this world than a learned, ambitious and inquisitive man being dragged screaming and pleading down to wallow in the mire with the ignorant masses.

#172
this thread reminds me of the time i told my mum growing flowers in her garden was a manifestation of the bourgeoisie's attempt to escape from the chaos of capitalist urbanization to a mythical order in nature. she was miffed.
#173
basically everyone who is outraged or upset over the burning of books is demonstrating the exact same attitude as that racist schoolteacher in the infamous "He White" essay.
#174
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#175
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#176
I'm not even talking about the educated, I'm talking about those who prize empty social relations over material production and support, regrettably you and I. i mean we might have the insight to go beyond blindly valuing knowledge for its own sake but at the same time we close our eyes to the degenerate bankruptcy of having a "drink" with "mates", with gossip and interpersonal drama, the primacy of romantic love, and so on. there's a silent majority that feels how wrong it all is. working class single mothers aside, they're constrained by a diffuse elite. you might wonder what this has to do with Mali or interventionism, but it's another form of "there is no alternative rhetoric" and another form of civilized enlightenment that must be brought to Africa
#177
Why isn't there a Mali thred yet
#178
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#179
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#180
http://forums.somethingawful.com/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=28275
#181

preservation is the hobby of the privileged

- spoken like a true authority on korean culture and the culture of the Countries With A Recent History

#182
http://rt.com/usa/news/paul-us-mali-french-011/

Ron Paul calls US involvement in Mali 'undeclared war'

Ron Paul said US assistance to the French intervention in Mali is a sign that the Obama administration is creeping into another war – especially since questions about the extent of US involvement remain largely unanswered.

­The recently retired congressman outlined his fears in his weekly column, “Texas Straight Talk”. Paul said that while the US has only announced its transport and intelligence assistance to the French initiative, “this is clearly developing into another war”.

“President Obama last week began his second term by promising that ‘a decade of war is now ending,’” Paul wrote. “As he spoke, the US military was rapidly working its way into another war, this time in the impoverished African country of Mali.”

Paul believes that unanswered questions about possible US involvement on African soil further indicates that Obama has been more active in the conflict than he admits, and that Congress has been kept out of the loop.

“Media questions as to whether the US has Special Operations forces, drones, or CIA paramilitary units active in Mali are unanswered by the Administration,” Paul said. “Congress has asked few questions and demanded few answers from the president. As usual, it was not even consulted. But where does the president get the authority to become a co-combatant in French operations in Mali, even if US troops are not yet overtly involved in the attack?”

Earlier this month, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said that US assistance in Mali is a good example of future military assistance it might provide to its allies and that the US would not bring its own troops into the conflict. The US first became involved by airlifting French soldiers and equipment to Mali with its C-17 transport planes, but gradually expanded its roles in Africa.

In response to a French request, the US on Saturday agreed to fly tankers to refuel French jet fighters and bombers who are located primarily in the conflict zone in northern Mali. An unnamed US defense official told The Guardian that the KC-135 tankers would be involved in the operation for months, or as long as needed.

The US on Monday signed an agreement with the West African country of Niger that would allow it to increase its US military presence and create a hub near the Malian border from which American drones could monitor al-Qaeda militants in northern Mali. The hub could be used as a launching pad for strikes and intelligence gathering, but the government has still remained mute about the extent of its contributions to the French military campaign.

Although the Obama administration has hesitated at the thought of entering another war, officials have no ruled out the use of armed drones or special-operations units to go after al-Qaeda militants in Mali.

The US involvement in Mali has sparked concern among war-weary Americans.

France “doesn’t have the military resources to sustain its fight against Mali’s jihadists without help from the US military. For now, that amounts to the use of giant transport planes to ferry French troops into Mali, and planes to refuel French combat aircrafts that are pummeling the militants’ positions,” writes USA Today columnist DeWayne Wickham. “But that might now be enough. As recent events have shown, Northern Africa has become an expanding battleground for jihadist groups with links to al-Qaeda.”

Wickham believes that as other al-Qaeda-linked groups begin to support their comrades in Mali, the US “will not be able to avoid a bigger military involvement.”

Paul fears that similarly to the Libya conflict, the Obama administration will intervene in Mali without consulting Congress, and that keeping legislators out of crucial decisions will spiral the US into further African conflicts.

#183
Vote Ron Paul
#184
the principal contradiction in the world today is between the imperialist first world United $nakkkes and the RLOVEution
#185

stegosaurus posted:

Why isn't there a Mali thred yet



i still dont know what trotskyism is !!

#186
trotskyism is to communism as mad about you is to seinfeld
#187
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#188
this article sort of crystalizes the liberal view of intervention.

"Euphoria, wariness greets Mali's liberation, CBC reporters find
Islamists in 'disarray,' French minister says"
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/31/f-lynch-mali-refugees.html

The euphoria that greeted French troops who entered Mali this month, after Islamist militants threatened to invade the south of the country, has given way to wariness on the part of some of those most immediately affected by the fighting, our CBC reporting team in Mali is discovering.
...
There have been jubilant scenes in the north, where Malians are thanking the French for liberating them.

But in the capital Bamako, which militants were threatening to enter in mid-January, there are some who have been watching the unfolding events with much more caution.



so the procedure works like this: first you accept the frame that the government gives you - it's a liberation, the islamists are barbarians, etc. - and then you complicate the picture only through difficulty in meeting consensus objectives. that is, you infuse a sort of critical distance into the narrative (this war has serious potential problems) but this critical posture is entirely within the hegemonic worldview, so it can't be activated against it.

#189
did yall read that dumb shit samir amin wrote about mali
#190
yeah i posted it and nobody really talked about it. mlm mayhem guy did another of his by the numbers things about the piece http://moufawad-paul.blogspot.com/2013/01/fallen-idols-on-samir-amins-recent.html
#191

statickinetics posted:

did yall read that dumb shit samir amin wrote about mali



it was bad. i guess amin voted for Hollande lol

also that mlm guys post about nietzsche made me so sad, now im disillusioned. i dont think i can read his blog or reddit anymore and i have a new appreciation of the aesthetic marxists that make up this forum

#192
Reddit would be a million times better if old posts weren't systematically pushed to a place where no one can read them, its such a horrible design. i do like that they attempt to do new things every week (new discussion topic each week, communist of the day etc) and that you get a constant stream of shit from psychopaths looking for internet points. So you hear about things which you might not have otherwise heard of. But most of the ppl really don't have much to say. Whereas people here do occasionally have something to say.
#193
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#194
Yeah that's only the communism subreddit not the child porn one or whatever.
#195
what's wrong with voting for hollande? you support sarkozy, baba booey?
#196
I fully SUpport holland daze, sark koozie coop, and baba googa
#197

stegosaurus posted:

yeah i posted it and nobody really talked about it. mlm mayhem guy did another of his by the numbers things about the piece http://moufawad-paul.blogspot.com/2013/01/fallen-idols-on-samir-amins-recent.html


i mean i know we shouldnt be fetishizing particular marxists. he's right that marxism is greater than any particular theorist but god damn was it depressing reading samir devolve into some wormy inchoerent liberalism

#198

No Marxist will forget, however, that capitalism is progressive compared with feudalism, and that imperialism is progressive compared with pre-monopoly capitalism. Hence, it is not every struggle against imperialism that we should support. We will not support a struggle of the reactionary classes against imperialism; we will not support an uprising of the reactionary classes against imperialism and capitalism.

#199
what's your point
#200
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