#121

discipline posted:

troop hate smacks of methodological individualism ftw and draws attention away from the more general reproduction of society


isn't this the exact argument someone like bhpn would use to attack a feminist organisation for condemning rapists

#122
like i'm completely for the theoretical clarity of antihumanism but i don't see how an interrogation of the structures that reproduce violence and exploitation should shift attention from the agents these structures produce to reinforce themselves. a critical perspective should take both into account, as, if you will, a dialectic
#123

blinkandwheeze posted:

discipline posted:

troop hate smacks of methodological individualism ftw and draws attention away from the more general reproduction of society

isn't this the exact argument someone like bhpn would use to attack a feminist organisation for condemning rapists



i'm laughing because of who upvoted this

#124
[account deactivated]
#125

hey posted:

troop hating always made me feel pretty nervous cause I could never really understand it. troop hate almost seems to me like a tool for imperialism because it makes people ignore indoctrination and focuses on the individual.
when I was younger I always wanted to join the military. My parents were very conservative and encouraged it. and every time someone would speak negatively about the military i felt even more compelled to become a military man due to a sense of nationalism. and it's always the same shit like "you're a fucking murdererer fucker FUCK". But it's like yeah. that's the fucking thing. The military and whatnot have been convincing us that that's the purpose of the troop, and have been very successful at it. It's like telling a mechanic that he's a dope ass engine fixing mother fucker. I'm not sure how it's productive.
It seems like people get a smug sastifaction out of troop hate because it's the lowest of the lowest hanging fruit. It's pretty easy to convice some dum ass hipster that killing people is bad. You get to pat yourself on the back becaue you got somebody on your side on your gay ass fight against imperialism. but in reality you're just having a nice little circle jerk at your fav cafe.
I dunno, im pretty drunk and thats my 2 cents. i didn't read goatsteins post cuz i hate reading his posts. and i never joined the military because i started doing coke at young age. and wooo-eeee what a ride has it been since then



thjis is a good + true post imo

#126
goatstein thinks people who join the army are somehow uniquely sociopathic. basically he's blind to ideology because he is ideology. nobody makes decisions based on objective moral calculus, that's liberal nonsense. he blames those under the influence of false consciousness for having false consciousness because his analysis is not built on any solid theoretical base. troop hate is a function of liberalism
#127
people who join the military are uniquely sociopathic because they made the decision to join the military. qed
#128
i remember i was doing the troop hate argue in wddp and someone said that they hated the army because the troops she'd met were all really rude and mean and transphobic and i pointed out that you dont need to go to the army to find transphobia and that as reasons for opposing us imperialism go thats pretty weak and everyone got mad at me for Transphobia Denial or whatever. weird place. anyway basically thats u goatstein
#129
so a kid from a small poor town whose family is full of decorated veterans, going to a school where adulation of the military is instilled from a young age, and finding after graduation that he has almost no other employment actions, if he chooses to join the military, he's uniquely sociopathic? it doesn't matter if you think it's the right decision or not, he's not signing up to go and kill non-whites, the army is at the head of an entirely separate chain of signification. you've got some pretty heavy-duty ideological blinders on. basically you can't see past your own chin.
#130
also peace is gay and war is kool. aesthetics
#131
Many types of people will have to disappear. Many people will want to join us. Possibly we will conquer the whole world. People will die young but it will be fun. We will burn the corpses of the heroes.
#132
war owns but only if im on the losing side. i choose underdog morality or none at all
#133
I don't think there are enough people in this girlified post Vietnam West who feel truly dedicated to fighting for the US cause. I mean even the most eaglebrained patriot of them all realizes the main thing he's defending is his fat boring cousin's right to watch two and a half men and eat burritos. that ought to disquiet anyone. do not forget that the military massively bribes people to join i
#134
yeah as i said in my dumb gay story, all this peace nonsense is symptomatic of a culture in terminal decline
#135
What if you hate the Troops not because they deserve it but because its useful agitprop
#136
its not useful agitprop
#137
it's an unavoidable consequence of the march of military technology though. unbridled state on state aggression is basically too expensive to pursue anymore and everyone's afraid of blowing the world up anyway. there hasn't been a successful CI war since Malaya and that didn't count anyway
#138
if people have false consciousness it's because leftists aren't broadcasting their ideas loudly and comprehensively enough. soldiers have been an essential class element in every revolution. we should be propagandising to them, not sneering at them for being psychopaths in a forum read by twenty people
#139
the Portuguese war in Angola+Mozambique is a v interesting case study in terms of savage aesthetics though. the dirty dago commanders were for some reason more astute than the whole US general staff in that they a) read Mao and b) paid attention to Vietnam to figure out what not to do. and with a fraction of the resources came close to wiping the rebels out before that silly coup happened. oh well
#140
basically i was posting this seven years ago goat

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2384841&pagenumber=1

i've moved on.
#141
okay six by your human calendar.
#142
[account deactivated]
#143

deadken posted:

so a kid from a small poor town whose family is full of decorated veterans, going to a school where adulation of the military is instilled from a young age, and finding after graduation that he has almost no other employment actions, if he chooses to join the military, he's uniquely sociopathic? it doesn't matter if you think it's the right decision or not, he's not signing up to go and kill non-whites, the army is at the head of an entirely separate chain of signification. you've got some pretty heavy-duty ideological blinders on. basically you can't see past your own chin.



i said soldiers as a whole are uniquely sociopathic. you are bringing it down to one (fantasy) individual as though this disproved the rule. whos guilty of the ideological crime of Individualism now

#144

deadken posted:

its not useful agitprop

its a babby step toward more meaningful anti imperialism, like posting in lf

#145

deadken posted:

goatstein thinks people who join the army are somehow uniquely sociopathic. basically he's blind to ideology because he is ideology. nobody makes decisions based on objective moral calculus, that's liberal nonsense.

Ken Heres where your wrong.

#146

Goethestein posted:

something about bein a ganster



what if he doesn't recognise that he's a gangster. what if he's privately morally conflicted about killing people but honestly believes in Defending America and Fighting For The Nation. yeah its a dumb ideal but plenty of people would say the same about killing for socialism or w/e. thing is i agree that us soldiers are enemy combatants but by calling them all sociopaths you're not carrying out anything close to analysis, you're going on what looks like a deeply personal rant

e: nice edit bro

#147

deadken posted:

i remember i was doing the troop hate argue in wddp and someone said that they hated the army because the troops she'd met were all really rude and mean and transphobic and i pointed out that you dont need to go to the army to find transphobia and that as reasons for opposing us imperialism go thats pretty weak and everyone got mad at me for Transphobia Denial or whatever. weird place. anyway basically thats u goatstein

that was goatstein. seriously.

#148

deadken posted:

if people have false consciousness it's because leftists aren't broadcasting their ideas loudly and comprehensively enough. soldiers have been an essential class element in every revolution. we should be propagandising to them, not sneering at them for being psychopaths in a forum read by twenty people



right-wing reactionary racist white heterosexual sociopath males from middle-class backgrounds in the first world are not a revolutionary class. the military itself as a structure bends towards fascism. you note that soldiers have been an essential element in every revolution, you fail to mention that most of these have been right-wing juntas.

#149

deadken posted:

Goethestein posted:

something about bein a ganster

what if he doesn't recognise that he's a gangster. what if he's privately morally conflicted about killing people but honestly believes in Defending America and Fighting For The Nation.



intent doesn't matter

#150

Goethestein posted:

i said soldiers as a whole are uniquely sociopathic. you are bringing it down to one (fantasy) individual as though this disproved the rule. whos guilty of the ideological crime of Individualism now



your whole op was about a fantasy individual, even if you used the plural pronoun

#151

Goethestein posted:

deadken posted:

Goethestein posted:

something about bein a ganster

what if he doesn't recognise that he's a gangster. what if he's privately morally conflicted about killing people but honestly believes in Defending America and Fighting For The Nation.

intent doesn't matter



if you're calling people sociopaths, then yes it does

#152
oh sorry about murdering dozens of people, i am a complete simpleton and thus mistaken about what i was doing. whoops!! time to suffer no legal consequences or social stigma
#153
dont bother with them goatine. they have fallen prey to the charm of the One Ring, the us muthafukin military.
#154
one thing i always thought was a strength of mine was that i thought i almost never got angry. like little things would annoy me and upset me but i never like wanted to yell about it or anything. then one day my nurse was like you have things to be angry about and it's weird if you're not really angry sometimes. so i thought about it and i realized that i'm really angry about things but i don't know how to handle it.

here's a quote by zizek:

Israeli and American films dealing with war in the Oliver-Stone style often forge an image of the soldier not as a righteous superhero, but rather as a sensi- tive individual who acquiesces to his own moral weaknesses. In a dialectic way, because he reveals his moral failure, the soldier then receives moral sympathy from the audience. Not only is a liberal audience ready to forgive him for his war crimes, but the fact that these crimes make him so human is the very impetus for us to embrace him as an errant child. Take, for example, the pro- tagonist (who also happens to be the director) of the recently released Israeli film Waltz with Bashir. The director took part in the massacre of Sabra and Shatila only to, years later, make a documentary about his post-traumatic state journey, the end of which includes a scene where he is redeemed by his shrink, who, in so many words, tells him: “You are good person. It’s true you made a mistake, but don’t ever forget: You are not a killer.” In Forgiveness, on the other hand, the soldier arrives, at the end of his journey, to the terrible understanding that he’s part of a perpetual killing. The crime he commits is not an individual failure within a healthy ethical structure, but an ethical failure built within the ideological structure itself.



the problem with american soldiers isn't that they are sociopaths. they are probably, in general, well-attuned to social norms and what's expected of them. the problem isn't individual moral failing so much as the imperatives of social structure that produce that sort of person. and it's the same basically for the response: you can understand as an individual but you have to respond at the level of systemic change. and the only way systemic change happens is by articulating a movement that can impose changes to the structure of society. and that can only happen if people see it's in their best interests to join such movements, which means focusing on the oppressed, and linking oppressions into a political fight. but even then, the level of coordination you need across huge numbers of people is so difficult that it happens in grand waves across decades.

so part of the issue, why i get so angry, is that i want to be able to arrange society in a nice way, but obviously i don't have the power to do that. and there are so many different injustices every day but i can't do much about them. any attempt to engage in a sort of visceral direct participation against the system would just be suicidal or close to it. like alcoholics you have to admit that you're basically powerless to "fix" society by yourself and you have to trust that there's a possibility we'll figure things out together. and i think once i can really wrap my head around that then i'll be better at just living day to day instead of feeling like i have some sort of personal quest to fix everything. so i want to be able to get angry, be angry, and just sort of live with that while i pursue personal projects i care about.

#155
hating capitalists isn't a systematic analysis either, but that doesnt mean its not cool
#156

ilmdge posted:

deadken posted:

i remember i was doing the troop hate argue in wddp and someone said that they hated the army because the troops she'd met were all really rude and mean and transphobic and i pointed out that you dont need to go to the army to find transphobia and that as reasons for opposing us imperialism go thats pretty weak and everyone got mad at me for Transphobia Denial or whatever. weird place. anyway basically thats u goatstein

that was goatstein. seriously.

no seriously guys im 99% sure that was a goatstein alt. he had a valerie solanas av i think and his name was some feminist pun or something and he made the trans case against the military and then went on to make a broader case and then got banned for being goatstein. am i wrong goatstein, come clean

#157

getfiscal posted:

basically i was posting this seven years ago goat

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2384841&pagenumber=1

i've moved on.



thats a cool thread but it's more about how their deaths are beneficial than how they deserve to die, imo

#158

ilmdge posted:

ilmdge posted:

deadken posted:

i remember i was doing the troop hate argue in wddp and someone said that they hated the army because the troops she'd met were all really rude and mean and transphobic and i pointed out that you dont need to go to the army to find transphobia and that as reasons for opposing us imperialism go thats pretty weak and everyone got mad at me for Transphobia Denial or whatever. weird place. anyway basically thats u goatstein

that was goatstein. seriously.

no seriously guys im 99% sure that was a goatstein alt. he had a valerie solanas av i think and his name was some feminist pun or something and he made the trans case against the military and then went on to make a broader case and then got banned for being goatstein. am i wrong goatstein, come clean

that sounds more like something iwc would do

#159

ilmdge posted:

ilmdge posted:

deadken posted:

i remember i was doing the troop hate argue in wddp and someone said that they hated the army because the troops she'd met were all really rude and mean and transphobic and i pointed out that you dont need to go to the army to find transphobia and that as reasons for opposing us imperialism go thats pretty weak and everyone got mad at me for Transphobia Denial or whatever. weird place. anyway basically thats u goatstein

that was goatstein. seriously.

no seriously guys im 99% sure that was a goatstein alt. he had a valerie solanas av i think and his name was some feminist pun or something and he made the trans case against the military and then went on to make a broader case and then got banned for being goatstein. am i wrong goatstein, come clean



ya. play 2 ur audience, imo

#160

deadken posted:

goatstein thinks people who join the army are somehow uniquely sociopathic. basically he's blind to ideology because he is ideology. nobody makes decisions based on objective moral calculus, that's liberal nonsense. he blames those under the influence of false consciousness for having false consciousness because his analysis is not built on any solid theoretical base. troop hate is a function of liberalism

there's no such thing as false consciousness: everything is damned in the scope of infinity.