deadken posted:

Rosa_Lichtenstein posted:

deadken posted:

Rosa_Lichtenstein posted:

So, let me get this straight: on this supposedly free and easy-going forum, one thing I can't do is ask someone to justify their beliefs/assertions? Even though others have asked this of me...

Seems fair.

lol yeah you can ask whatever you want but all you'll get in response is a video of a pro wrestler spliced with no no no cat or someone inviting you to take the first train 2 the gulag. its fun!!

More like a waste of time...

Anyway, one or two characters here seem not to have taken leave of their senses (yet!), and at least try to argue

everything fun is a waste of time basically

I'm surprised you wasted a few seconds to tell me this.

Handsome posted:

Your site is well put together and all but it misses one glaring flaw in its critique, I've written much on this subject myself, head over to My Blog and check it out!

That is really well written. Thanks for this.

tpaine posted:

its this http://hansmealman.tumblr.com/

thjis is cool post more tumblrs, no way in hell im reading the last 4 pages of gibberish

Impper posted:

rosa can you read my books and let me know what you think. thank you

http://www.amazon.com/John-Christy/e/B006RBZ01A/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1

I'm really sorry, but I don't read fiction, and haven't done so for at least 20 years.

jools posted:

rosa, how is saying all marxism has "failed" (the terms of this failure themselves probably needing interrogation) thus far because it is dialectical historically materialist and not actually pretty idealist

No, I am quite specific; it's Dialectical Marxism that has a long and depressing history of failure. The non-dialectical version hasn't been tried yet.

Moreover, I do not blame dialectics for its failure.

I have already posted the following in this thread (it is taken from the opening page of my site):

It's important to emphasise from the outset that I am not blaming the long-term failure of Dialectical Marxism solely on the acceptance of the Hermetic ideas dialecticians inherited from Hegel.

It's worth repeating this since I still encounter comments on Internet discussion boards, and still receive e-mails from those who claim to have read the above words, who still think I am blaming all our woes on dialectics. I am not.

However, no matter how many times I repeat this caveat, the message will not sink in -- and that's after several years of continually making this very point!

It seems this is one part of the universe over which the Heraclitean Flux has no power!

What is being claimed, however, is that adherence to this 'theory' is one of the subjective reasons why Dialectical Marxism has become a bye-word for failure.

There are other, objective reasons why the class enemy still runs the planet, but since revolutions require revolutionaries with ideas in their heads, this 'theory' must take some of the blame.

So, it is alleged here that dialectics has been an important contributory factor.

It certainly helps explain why revolutionary groups are in general vanishingly small, neurotically sectarian, studiously unreasonable, consistently conservative, inconsistently deferential to 'tradition', and almost invariably lean toward some form of substitutionism.

Naturally, this has had a direct bearing on our lack of impact on the working-class over the last seventy years or so -- and probably for much longer -- and thus on the continuing success of Capitalism.

The following 'Unity of Opposites' is difficult to explain otherwise:

The larger the proletariat, the smaller the impact that Dialectical Marxism has on it.

Sadly, this will continue while comrades cling to this regressive doctrine.

Any who doubt this are encouraged to read on, where those doubts will be severely bruised, if not completely laid to rest.

What I allege is that dialectics has made a bad situation worse.

Here is what I posted at RevLeft a few years back (in answer to the question, "Why is Dialectical Materialsim (DM) bad?")

There are several reasons:

(1) It is easy to show it makes no sense, and so cannot be used to change the world (but it does confuse comrades).

(2) It has undeniable roots in ruling-class thought, and thus represents a non-working class view of the world (hence its other faults; see below).

(3) Because it makes a virtue out of 'contradiction', it can be, and has been used to defend all manner or counter-revolutionary and anti-Marxist political doctrines, and their opposites, sometimes 24 hours later, often by the same individual.

(4) It insulates militant minds from the facts (thus preventing the scientific development of Marxism). For example, because it teaches that surface 'appearances' 'contradict' underlying reality, it prevents dialectically-distracted comrades from acknowledging the long-term failure of Dialectical Marxism. In many cases, because it encourages comrades to see failure as its opposite, its 'contradictory', 'success' (or 'success' about to happen any day soon), they refuse to admit (they won't even countenance the possibility) that their core theory (dialectics) has anything to do with this. So, even though dialectics teaches that everything is interconnected, apparently, the only two things in the entire universe that are not linked in any way at all are: a) the long-term decline of Dialectical Marxism and b) its core theory!

(5) It exacerbates (but does not cause) sectarianism.

(6) Because it is a source of consolation for the long-term failure of Dialectical Marxism (for reasons outlined in (4) above), its acolytes cling on to it like grim death, and become highly irrational and emotive in its defence. (Watch how they reply to this post!)

There are other reasons why this mystical creed is deleterious to Marxism, but these will do for now.

More details here:

http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/page%2009_02.htm

http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/page%20010_01.htm

At the first of the above links I advance materialist reasons why (1) Dailectical Marxism is such a long term failure, and always will be, (2) DM has made a bad situation worse, and (3) Why Dialectical Marxists will cling on to this theory come what may, even if it/they permanently ruin the worker's movement. They evidently prefer to cling to this failed theory rather than prosecute a successful revolution.

I conclude:

Dialectics is the sigh of the depressed dialectician, the heart of a heartless world. It is the opiate of the party. The abolition of dialectics as the illusory happiness of the party hack is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.

Unfortunately, these sad characters will need (materialist) workers to rescue them from themselves, if and when the working class initiate their own classless society.

I stand no chance...

Edited by Rosa_Lichtenstein (Nov. 15, 2012 05:41:25)

tpaine posted:

its not fiction, it was based on a real rape

Ok, so it will be too upsetting for me to read, for reasons I won't go into.

Handsome posted:

Rosa_Lichtenstein posted:

diamond_galas posted:

i dunno, blaming the failure of actually existing socialism on using the wrong kind of marxism seems kind of idealist to me

Which is why I wrote this on the opening page of my site (link in my signature):

It's important to emphasise from the outset that I am not blaming the long-term failure of Dialectical Marxism solely on the acceptance of the Hermetic ideas dialecticians inherited from Hegel.

It's worth repeating this since I still encounter comments on Internet discussion boards, and still receive e-mails from those who claim to have read the above words, who still think I am blaming all our woes on dialectics. I am not.

However, no matter how many times I repeat this caveat, the message will not sink in -- and that's after several years of continually making this very point!

It seems this is one part of the universe over which the Heraclitean Flux has no power!

What is being claimed, however, is that adherence to this 'theory' is one of the subjective reasons why Dialectical Marxism has become a bye-word for failure.

There are other, objective reasons why the class enemy still runs the planet, but since revolutions require revolutionaries with ideas in their heads, this 'theory' must take some of the blame.

So, it is alleged here that dialectics has been an important contributory factor.

It certainly helps explain why revolutionary groups are in general vanishingly small, neurotically sectarian, studiously unreasonable, consistently conservative, inconsistently deferential to 'tradition', and almost invariably lean toward some form of substitutionism.

Naturally, this has had a direct bearing on our lack of impact on the working-class over the last seventy years or so -- and probably for much longer -- and thus on the continuing success of Capitalism.

The following 'Unity of Opposites' is difficult to explain otherwise:

The larger the proletariat, the smaller the impact that Dialectical Marxism has on it.

Sadly, this will continue while comrades cling to this regressive doctrine.

Any who doubt this are encouraged to read on, where those doubts will be severely bruised, if not completely laid to rest.

Your site is well put together and all but it misses one glaring flaw in its critique, I've written much on this subject myself, head over to My Blog and check it out!

Yes, that certainly puts me in my place. I'm just glad you didn't quote Popeye at me...

AmericanNazbro posted:

Rosa are you a real marxist? i've never met one of thosew before, greetings. mind if i ask you a few questions?

what do you think about obama symbolizing society's progression towards the dialectic synthesis between capitalism and communism - fascism. do you think dialectical fascism will be as good as those hitler videos where biggie smalls and juicy jay are rapping over the video? obama has given me hope that it will be that good, but i'm not an expert on dialectics, so i'd very much like to hear your insight on the subject matter.

thank you.

Yes I am a genuine Marxist.

Obama is just a regulation issue capitalist politician with a knack for producing left-sounding rhetoric. It's worth recalling that he is just a figurehead. The real power in the USA lies with the bureaucracy, the military, the police, corporations and the super rich. It's a joke to mention socialism in the same breath as Obama

Check out a couple of articles in the latest ISJ on this:

http://www.isj.org.uk/

And these:

http://www.isreview.org/issues/71/feat-neoliberaleducation.shtml

http://www.isreview.org/issues/78/critthink-imperialism.shtml

http://www.isreview.org/issues/68/gasper-obama.shtml

Never seen those vidoes, and never want to, to be honest.

Finally, never heard of Dialectical Nazism, sorry.

getfiscal posted:

are you a cliffite, rosa?

No, but I used to be in the UK-SWP a while back, and will rejoin (if they'll have me back!) when my project is finished.

Rosa_Lichtenstein posted:

AmericanNazbro posted:
Rosa are you a real marxist? i've never met one of thosew before, greetings. mind if i ask you a few questions?

what do you think about obama symbolizing society's progression towards the dialectic synthesis between capitalism and communism - fascism. do you think dialectical fascism will be as good as those hitler videos where biggie smalls and juicy jay are rapping over the video? obama has given me hope that it will be that good, but i'm not an expert on dialectics, so i'd very much like to hear your insight on the subject matter.

thank you.


Yes I am a genuine Marxist.

Obama is just a regulation issue capitalist politician with a knack for producing left-sounding rhetoric. It's worth recalling that he is just a figurehead. The real power in the USA lies with the bureaucracy, the military, the police, corporations and the super rich. It's a joke to mention socialism in the same breath as Obama

Check out a couple of articles in the latest ISJ on this:

http://www.isj.org.uk/

And these:

http://www.isreview.org/issues/71/feat-neoliberaleducation.shtml

http://www.isreview.org/issues/78/critthink-imperialism.shtml

http://www.isreview.org/issues/68/gasper-obama.shtml

Never seen those vidoes, and never want to, to be honest.

Finally, never heard of Dialectical Nazism, sorry.

But Obama has employed a dialectic between the established capitalist order and hopeful leftist rhetoric to forge a new synthesis of capitalist order that is "cool" and isn't questioned by people who would otherwise be putting their energy towards true revolutionary politics

"neoliberalism with a badass attitude" if you will. That's dialectic materialism

Rosa_Lichtenstein posted:

getfiscal posted:
are you a cliffite, rosa?


No, but I used to be in the UK-SWP a while back, and will rejoin (if they'll have me back!) when my project is finished.

Do they have a trot paper i can buy?

Rosa_Lichtenstein posted:

getfiscal posted:

are you a cliffite, rosa?

No, but I used to be in the UK-SWP a while back, and will rejoin (if they'll have me back!) when my project is finished.

Do you consider yourself a Trotskyist? If so, of any sort, like Mandelite or something?