getfiscal posted:if you want planning to work and don't want to experiment with it in limited contexts to prove that it works rather than pointing to a handful of cherry-picked sources about countries a half-century ago then go ahead and see how successful you are at convincing voters to do so. and if you just want to impose it on people through force because you can't convince them then do that too. have a great time.
i'm trying to annex quebec right now in Vichy II but I keep getting these massive uprisings of anarcho-capitalists and I'm like, hey, fuck you, guys
thirdplace posted:although seriously is there any good reason we can't, provided all the necessary caveats, see capitalist firms as laboratories of proloacracy? what is Walmart if not a top-down, intricately managed central-planner wet-dream?
Intriguing, but what exactly is the motivation for talented people to contribute to building this system?
getfiscal posted:if you just want to impose it on people through force because you can't convince them then do that too. have a great time.
getfiscal posted:catpee posted:all I see you saying is that the problems of planning in a specific time and place conducted in a specific way means that capitalism is the only option.
i'm not saying that at all. i'm saying that the evidence i've seen suggests that certain kinds of planning don't work very well by my own values. i think it'd be good if we could get planning to work. we should keep trying to experiment with various economic mechanisms. but we probably shouldn't try to experiment at the national level with the entire economy at once based on limited evidence. i think we should be skeptical about total solutions based on limited experiences. the idea that an economy is either-or is obviously false - capitalist economies involve huge amounts of planning and are very diverse.
Ok Ok Ok post quote FUNNY
well the Communists in the 20th century experimented, so now what? do it again? Agreed
Crow posted:getfiscal posted:
catpee posted:
all I see you saying is that the problems of planning in a specific time and place conducted in a specific way means that capitalism is the only option.
i'm not saying that at all. i'm saying that the evidence i've seen suggests that certain kinds of planning don't work very well by my own values. i think it'd be good if we could get planning to work. we should keep trying to experiment with various economic mechanisms. but we probably shouldn't try to experiment at the national level with the entire economy at once based on limited evidence. i think we should be skeptical about total solutions based on limited experiences. the idea that an economy is either-or is obviously false - capitalist economies involve huge amounts of planning and are very diverse.
Ok Ok Ok post quote FUNNY
well the Communists in the 20th century experimented, so now what? do it again? Agreed
Why is this experimented in the past tense?
the DPRK is still doing it, why can that not serve as a model for a prosperous, planned economy?
Ironicwarcriminal posted:Crow posted:getfiscal posted:
catpee posted:
all I see you saying is that the problems of planning in a specific time and place conducted in a specific way means that capitalism is the only option.
i'm not saying that at all. i'm saying that the evidence i've seen suggests that certain kinds of planning don't work very well by my own values. i think it'd be good if we could get planning to work. we should keep trying to experiment with various economic mechanisms. but we probably shouldn't try to experiment at the national level with the entire economy at once based on limited evidence. i think we should be skeptical about total solutions based on limited experiences. the idea that an economy is either-or is obviously false - capitalist economies involve huge amounts of planning and are very diverse.
Ok Ok Ok post quote FUNNY
well the Communists in the 20th century experimented, so now what? do it again? AgreedWhy is this experimented in the past tense?
the DPRK is still doing it, why can that not serve as a model for a prosperous, planned economy?
that's a good point, Cuba too. i think maybe America should consider instituting Chinese characteristics, much better model, quite obvious
getfiscal posted:catpee posted:all I see you saying is that the problems of planning in a specific time and place conducted in a specific way means that capitalism is the only option.
i'm not saying that at all. i'm saying that the evidence i've seen suggests that certain kinds of planning don't work very well by my own values. i think it'd be good if we could get planning to work. we should keep trying to experiment with various economic mechanisms. but we probably shouldn't try to experiment at the national level with the entire economy at once based on limited evidence. i think we should be skeptical about total solutions based on limited experiences. the idea that an economy is either-or is obviously false - capitalist economies involve huge amounts of planning and are very diverse.
I'm all for experimenting with everything all the time!
I just don't see a way for a hybrid of markets and central planning to escape from the capitalist law of value and I don't really see a way to resolve our most pressing problems without getting rid of capitalism. Obviously pure central planning had a lot of problems and I really like reading your criticisms but in central planning I see a way to get rid of capitalism entirely while the hybrid forms I can think of all seem to be historically destined to revert to pure capitalism and all that entails. I'm open to suggestions or discussion on all of these points, maybe I’m not imaginative enough. I just don't really understand how your position is compatible with anti-capitalism. It'd really help me out if you could clarify what you mean with a "left-social democratic dirigiste" system, because “some kind of capitalism” is literally what I hear when you say that.
Ironicwarcriminal posted:thirdplace posted:although seriously is there any good reason we can't, provided all the necessary caveats, see capitalist firms as laboratories of proloacracy? what is Walmart if not a top-down, intricately managed central-planner wet-dream?
Intriguing, but what exactly is the motivation for talented people to contribute to building this system?
if only there was some kind of ... incentive system...
drwhat posted:Ironicwarcriminal posted:
thirdplace posted:
although seriously is there any good reason we can't, provided all the necessary caveats, see capitalist firms as laboratories of proloacracy? what is Walmart if not a top-down, intricately managed central-planner wet-dream?
Intriguing, but what exactly is the motivation for talented people to contribute to building this system?
if only there was some kind of ... incentive system...
such as?
