#17521
At the end of the day I'm not going to feel guilty for killing and eating something that would not feel guilty if it did it to me.
#17522

Horselord posted:

At the end of the day I'm not going to feel guilty for killing and eating something that would not feel guilty if it did it to me.



i guess ill put these naziburgers back in the fridge then


Horselord posted:

The question is if these species are have, or are capable of having, the concept that it's possible to kill another living being in an immoral (or moral) way? Would it's idea of when it's morally right or wrong to kill even remotely resemble ours?


this consideration seems to be off the table :) when we're talking about humans who can't understand mortality. if the folks who murdered ricky ray rector were shitty cunts for this reason where do we stand regarding folks who justify killing other species that lack abstract reasoning ability on that basis. i don't think moral reason is pulling a lot of weight here

Edited by zhaoyao ()

#17523
I wonder if furries are positively or negatively correlated with vegetarianism.
#17524
Lets just say that they have motivated reasoning in seeing animals as lacking some kind of ethical autonomy
#17525
wasn't we talking about motivated seasoning though
#17526
[account deactivated]
#17527
On the question of the existence of nonhuman societies. There are some interesting claims to be made. For example, certain birds can be observed to have gender; some birds have symbolic capabilities (this example comes from Jacques Lacan); animals communicate in various ways; masturbation; and the well-known varieties of behaviour among apes.
#17528

ๆ‹›็‘ค posted:

if the folks who murdered ricky ray rector were shitty cunts for this reason where do we stand regarding folks who justify killing other species that lack abstract reasoning ability on that basis. i don't think moral reason is pulling a lot of weight here



that ones already been answered in the post you're referring to, so i guess you have to go back and read it again

toyot posted:

i would just say that this view is behind the times. in the last 30 years of technical discovery, our species has falsified the notion that life appeared independently in flora, fauna, bug, man, tree, and the billions of instances of life that we are too large to see. all life here has a common ancestor that used a ribozyme. trees share half the DNA as us -- another very recent discovery -- but they are obviously not objects like rocks, that's a more recent ideological invention. bees are not aliens, they evolved on earth. you're just completely wrong but sometimes a sleepy thread needs that.



if you want to tell me i'm completely wrong it would help you a lot if you understood what i said. for example, "the notion that life appeared independently in flora, fauna, bug, man, tree" etc is not one that support or proposed. That all life on earth has a common ancestor has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about, at all. You know that neither you nor a lumberjack gives a shit how much DNA he shares with the tree he's cutting down, the tree isn't a meaningful relative as he experiences life, the tree is a resource.

when someone describes something as "alien" it does not mean "from space", it means "very different from us". I guess bees aren't alien to you as they are to me, you being as you are destined to die at your first orgasm

Edited by Horselord ()

#17529
[account deactivated]
#17530
Social organisation has a specific meaning in zoology and it's probably a mistake to use that to articulate a politics of animal liberation. The main problem I see with the concept of liberating animals though is that human beings, a specific group of human beings, have created that concept and applied it to all/some animals. Where that gets exponentially more problematic is when humans who are interested in animal liberation rationalise that fact by equivocating the context for the lack of liberation movements among animals with that among oppressed humans. Animals aren't demanding liberation from human oppression, let alone describing such liberation or how they intend to achieve it, unlike humans who have done so over all of known human history.

So it comes down to middle class humans saying what animals need, why no element of animal liberation applies to plants and why these are necessary aspects of environmental activism. In actual practice, tacking on animal liberation or even ethical veganism to anti-capitalist environmental activism only adds pointless confusion and divisiveness to discussion of a problem which is not only very important but imo needs immediate resolution.

Re patriarchy and meat consumption here too animal activists try to make their worldviews a necessary extension of an actually legitimate issue. There are patriarchal religious-vegetarian communities in India, as well as matriarchal tribal societies/cultures which kill animals for food. Patriarchal hierarchies determining access to quality and quantity of food is totally unrelated to the consumption of meat per se.
#17531

toyot posted:

you're right, you were talking about how you relate to other life as a person. and here i thought you meant you were interested in how you're related to other life as a person!



My social relation to a tree is that I need some wood to make a chair, so I cut the tree down and use it for lumber.

This has nothing to do with genetic relation.

What do you gain by pretending not to understand the distinction?

#17532

Horselord posted:

You know that neither you nor a lumberjack gives a shit how much DNA he shares with the tree he's cutting down, the tree isn't a meaningful relative as he experiences life, the tree is a resource.


hi, former "lumberjack" here again, so basically,

#17533
Im just here to eat popcorn and upvote tears posts
#17534
listen here lumberjack
#17535

pogfan1996 posted:

I think this is why the Marxist left has such a disdain for animal liberation, most of the writing and activism done on it today is entirely within the liberal ethical framework. For example, Singer frames the entire basis of animal liberation on reducing suffering as the ultimate good in the world, and exploiting animals causes suffering.


My impression is that alot of the difficulty sorrounding animal-rights discourse is that it goes around two difficult to reconcile points. One is the 'rationalist' perspective that treats animals as a natural resource and draws all of the different arguments that are implicit from this perspective, such as the above argument about the qualitative nature of animal cognition, which is more generally an arugment about what their capacity for 'suffering' is, and how that squares with leftism's position against the barbarism of capitalism. The question in this case is less about the exploitation of natural resources as such and more about whether conscious beings qualify as a natural resource. On the other hand, there's an argument against animal suffering which is more fundamental which concerns the aforementioned 'treating as means opposed to ends' of animals, which is important precisely because it dislodges itself from the incoherence and brutality that emerges from the quasi-rationalist perspective of utilitarian suffering arithmetic taken to its conclusion. The argument gets sidelined, I think, under the suspicion of mystification, but it seems evident that even setting aside the particular animal issue of conscious beings treated as means, the conception of nature as means ('natural resources') leads smoothly into destructive hyper-exploitation via rational decisions made in a rational framework.
On a side note, I'm not too familiar with the literature on the subject in general, but I like John Berger's essay on animals precisely because he points out the precedence of animals in society as cohabitants of the earth over the retroactive view of domestication as a purely economical and utilitarian transformation in productive modes.

#17536
Really good insight, thanks!
#17537
Thing is, even when animals don't attach highfalutin meaning to suffering like "being wronged by another", they still clearly feel pain and a desire to survive. A healthy human being will respond with empathy to seeing that, which is why we know that if you see a kid torture animals for fun then that kid is going to be a serial killer or something. If you're not crazy and you want meat and milk, you're going to get those things by the least painful method you can achieve. Capitalism's priorities being what they are would reject a better method if it cost a dollar more.

So I don't respect animal "liberation" because animals are incapable of understanding what liberation is, at the same time that doesn't mean it's okay to go into a field with some power tools and see what interesting noises daisy the cow makes. It just means I don't feel bad that these useful animals we own die to turn into our food.
#17538
Note that in these hypotheticals, our subject contrives stories about torturing other livestock but shies away from mentioning horses or what they wish to do to them
#17539

Horselord posted:

ๆ‹›็‘ค posted:

if the folks who murdered ricky ray rector were shitty cunts for this reason where do we stand regarding folks who justify killing other species that lack abstract reasoning ability on that basis. i don't think moral reason is pulling a lot of weight here

that ones already been answered in the post you're referring to, so i guess you have to go back and read it again



other species don't seem to humans to have the ability to understand morality or justice & can be killed & eaten guilt-free. their primitive societies, undeveloped or neglected intellects, & internonpersonal relationships have not crossed a threshold we would recognize as civilized & morally conscious

ricky ray rector's inability to comprehend death makes it fucked up that he was executed because he is a human, a species uniquely capable of abstract thought, although not all humans have this ability. in general those folks are particularly vulnerable & are especially protected on the basis of their disability. well in a perfect world anyway, same place we find "things going properly"

suggesting there's a red herring here, that's what i was getting at. the basis for exceptional treatment despite lacking higher reasoning is simply that humans are humans, not because of what humans at the right point in their lives in a perfect world when things are going properly might be capable of. even the idea that we should treat people perceived as deficient in intellect or morality as fully human is relatively new but we still didn't eat them

we don't extend special protection to animals simply because they are not human. talking about the ability to understand the morality of murder is working backwards from a conclusion. we eat meat and treat animals like shit because we've always done that, they taste good, and can't defend themselves adequately because we're apparently uniquely clever and cooperative murderers. it's unpopular to call folks who eat meat shitty cunts because they're just killing animals, not humans

#17540
while i often exlclaim "fuck horses" i don't mean actually fuck horses & understand that it's not the horses' fault their dick "owners" coerced them via ritual abuse to shit where i walk & kick up mudholes. liberate horses for the sake of my boots, real deal false speciesism/false interspeciesism
#17541
just thinking about how no one on earth had a better decade than grover furr:

Edited by Constantignoble ()

#17542
[account deactivated]
#17543
[account deactivated]
#17544

dizastar posted:

it's clear that changes need to be made, for example i plan to propose to the jdpon executive board, once it is established, that all housepets be expropriated from euro-amerikkkan homes (along with the homes) to be fed to the hungriest and meat deprived third worlders. another proposition i have, maybe a little bit more risquรฉ, is simply to feed all white people to the subsistence famers of the global south. Just think about it, you know how much nutrients are locked inside of our organs, muscles and so on? period blood and placenta are already known to be superfoods, but a whole human heart? think about it... one of the worst parts of so called civilized society is that we aren't allowed to engage in cannibalism anymore, and i dont care much for animal liberation but if it can help us solve that problem then im all for it


#17545

dizastar posted:

another proposition i have, maybe a little bit more risquรฉ, is simply to feed all white people to the subsistence famers of the global south.



pork is haram

#17546

blinkandwheeze posted:

Note that in these hypotheticals, our subject contrives stories about torturing other livestock but shies away from mentioning horses or what they wish to do to them


i know that this is technically an offsite but that doesn't mean that you have to behave like a malicious dickhead from somethingawful, a website and culture that i think everyone here already understands is bad. That's the last time I'll respond to remarks like this.

ๆ‹›็‘ค posted:

suggesting there's a red herring here, that's what i was getting at. the basis for exceptional treatment despite lacking higher reasoning is simply that humans are humans, not because of what humans at the right point in their lives in a perfect world when things are going properly might be capable of.



Humans are humans, so they get treated as them, yes I agree, and how do you define humans? I do it with the thing the human species has that no other species has.

ๆ‹›็‘ค posted:

we don't extend special protection to animals simply because they are not human. talking about the ability to understand the morality of murder is working backwards from a conclusion. we eat meat and treat animals like shit because we've always done that, they taste good, and can't defend themselves adequately because we're apparently uniquely clever and cooperative murderers. it's unpopular to call folks who eat meat shitty cunts because they're just killing animals, not humans



we don't extend special protection to animals simply because they are not human, yes, see above. We're using human here as synonymous with person, when person is the more important part. If he was real, would you eat Elim Garak?

#17547

dizastar posted:


A Maodest Proposal

#17548

dizastar posted:

its pretty bizarre to be on a communist forum and see such jingoistic takes on the relationship between humyns and sentient animals. I'm not into the ethical tenet of animal lib either but claiming 'human exceptionalism' doesnt work when it comes to concepts such as liberation or empathy because they obviously dont have a universal meaning. YOu think tribesmen in amazonia have the same ethical/moral standpoint as you? or that theyre aware & sympathetic towards the same causes, ideals & so on as you or me? ethics & morals, like every aspect of social life, are entirely shaped by material conditions n thus differ from one social group to another. this is also where your pro animal subjugation argument falls fl



No it has nothing to do with them sharing the same moral system or culture. It doesn't matter which one you have, it just matters that you can have one. All peoples on this earth have one, even though they are different, but cattle don't have one, because they can't.

But this is another time where someone with sympathy to animal lib puts together an argument that equates non-whitey society to animals. It's not even the first time someone in this thread did it. I wonder why that keeps happening! Or if you would be brave enough to submit yourself to the reputation number of IRL by writing the sentiment on a sandwich board john mcclane style and wearing it in the relevant culture's high streets.

#17549
instead of sending all teh bougie to teh countryside i would make them all vegans
#17550

Horselord posted:

Humans are humans, so they get treated as them, yes I agree, and how do you define humans? I do it with the thing the human species has that no other species has.


I think maybe this is where the disagreement is coming from. You say that the ability to understand abstract concepts like "murder" and "justice" is what makes it wrong to harm or kill something; it's pointed out that many, many humans don't have the ability to understand abstract concepts; well, the human species has the ability to understand that stuff. Well, ok, in the Platonic Realm of the Forms and in Catholic Natural Law all human beings have those abilities, sure. I'm a materialist, so that isn't a particularly compelling argument.

But anyway, you saying that torturing animals is bad means you agree with 70% of what animal liberation folks are getting at. You can cross another 15% or so by realizing that ~90% of the animal products you ever consumed came from an animal that was tortured to death with methods that are roughly as cruel or crueler than just carving them up with power tools.

#17551

karphead posted:

instead of sending all teh bougie to teh countryside i would make them all vegans



THEN i'd send them to the countryside - they'd be so surprised

#17552

ๆ‹›็‘ค posted:

while i often exlclaim "fuck horses" i don't mean actually fuck horses & understand that it's not the horses' fault their dick "owners" coerced them via ritual abuse to shit where i walk & kick up mudholes. liberate horses for the sake of my boots, real deal false speciesism/false interspeciesism


in Vegantopia, this won't be a problem because the only way to make boots will be nice clean shiny all natural petroleum based plastic

#17553

filler posted:

I think maybe this is where the disagreement is coming from. You say that the ability to understand abstract concepts like "murder" and "justice" is what makes it wrong to harm or kill something; it's pointed out that many, many humans don't have the ability to understand abstract concepts; well, the human species has the ability to understand that stuff. Well, ok, in the Platonic Realm of the Forms and in Catholic Natural Law all human beings have those abilities, sure. I'm a materialist, so that isn't a particularly compelling argument.



"A human can do X, except in cases where something went wrong" is a solid materialist statement to me. Having the front third of your brain destroyed by a bullet isn't a step in the life cycle of our species.

I could also say that "animals should be liberated" isn't a materialist statement. Why should they? Because they feel pain? Why is that important, other than that it makes you feel guilty to know about it? Is guilt materialist?

filler posted:

But anyway, you saying that torturing animals is bad means you agree with 70% of what animal liberation folks are getting at. You can cross another 15% or so by realizing that ~90% of the animal products you ever consumed came from an animal that was tortured to death with methods that are roughly as cruel or crueler than just carving them up with power tools.



No not really. Animal liberation people think that torturing animals is bad because it's a crime against a living being. I think that it's bad because it's a symptom of a severe mental condition where you're not responding to empathy cues properly, and if you have that condition you're a danger to society.

Edited by Horselord ()

#17554
Hm I donโ€™t think either side is going to convince each other by means of an argument since a priori justifications are just going to lead to aporetic deadlock. Just like how the liberation of the proletariat isnโ€™t really an โ€œargumentโ€ we posit, but rather that their liberation arises given certain real conditions of possibility and material circumstances already in existence, so it is with โ€œanimal liberationโ€ or universal veganism or whatever you want to call it, which very well could arise within a planned economy faced with unsustainable livestock farming and climate collapse. Whatever real material situation arises thusly can be justified ex post facto, like how our attitude towards cannibalism is based on our social circumstances rather than a biologically innate distaste or an ethical argument everyone has to decide on at some point.
#17555

dimashq posted:

like how our attitude towards cannibalism is based on our social circumstances rather than an innate distaste for human meat.



Has that been proven?

#17556

Horselord posted:

dimashq posted:

like how our attitude towards cannibalism is based on our social circumstances rather than an innate distaste for human meat.

Has that been proven?



Iโ€™m being lazy but Iโ€™m certain that Iโ€™ve read that cannibalism has been documented in certain societies.

#17557
Yes but I want to know how it showing up in those societies would happen if there's an instinctual avoidal of it, or how it could disprove there being one.
#17558

Horselord posted:

Yes but I want to know how it showing up in those societies would happen if there's an instinctual avoidal of it, or how it could disprove there being one.



Thatโ€™s a good point and thereโ€™s probably a fine line between ancient taboo and biological/genetic distaste, given our sociability as a species. Iโ€™m not an anthropologist so Iโ€™d be lying if I had an answer for you.

#17559
i recently witnessed a terrible discussion of lysenko and someone cited this section of wikipedia which cites this atlantic article which cites this book called cannibalism: a perfectly natural history to demonstrate that lysenkoism led to millions of instances of great leap forward cannibalism. this all may seem irrelevant but i bring this up because my journey led to an inextricable desire to hunt down and eat alive all of the involved authors, which may have something to do with your question about the failure of instinct.
#17560
thank you, blue square