Well, I finished another series. The people that said DS9 was the best trek series are right. The partially serialized dominion war with decent character arcs around Kira, Odo, Dukat, Damar, and Garak definitely produced the best liberal take on space capitalism we’ll probably ever see again.

The final scene with Worf curb-stomping Quark was brutal but really drove home the point in regards to built up tension, and the horrific reality of all the death and destruction caused by the war.
if there's one thing that disgusts me about star trek in general, and next-gen/ds9 in particular, its the total disregard for ecological limitations by virtue of the absurd abundancy of worlds to go and destroy

in ds9 s5/e13 sisko straight up causes an ecocidal event, scores of refugees, all to live out the heavy-handed and overt jalvert counter-fantasy, and the episode ends on a clear - not implicit, but *didactic* - high note

dax straight up smiles like she just got off worf's murderous dong
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im currently watching ds9 imagining all references to klingons, especially ethno-cultural claims from dax, are replaced with real-life ethnonyms or slurs. its not good either way!
yeah the Dax thing is pretty funny where her former-life man-self was just so hard-drinking and racist that the Klingons made him an official Klingon. There's at least a good moment in the episode where all the '60s Star Trek Klingons come back in '90s-revisionist form, and Dax is at the office with Kira and is like, Hey, um so, does it really, like, change a person to murder someone? and Kira takes her aside and gets up in her face and says, Sweetie, I love you, but you are about to opt in to something that was beaten into me from birth by Nazis who raped and murdered my friends and family and you are hitting me up for tips over the cubicle wall, what the fuck do you think. And Dax does it anyway, and somehow hundred-percents a no-kill run through an entire guerilla-warfare siege of a fortified outpost, and the episode makes a big show like she drifted over the line for a moment just by being there. But it was '90s episodic TV and the Moore-era Klingons always "crossed the line" by samurai-dueling sadistic cartoon villains, so Dax just slinks back to her desk afterwards while everyone looks sad and disappointed, and when they adopted serialized stories later in the series, Dax being an official Klingon was mostly just an angle on the fan-favorite franchise character she was banging. What I'm saying here is that in the first couple seasons a bunch of people on the show had the idea that Kira and Dax were extremely gay for each other.
I am generally a skeptic about how Everything Changed in Frosthole, Idaho when people watched planes hit the World Trade Center over and over through the mediated spectacle of morning TV and reaffirmed their desire to see someone else slaughter some Arabs, but I take the writers at their word when they say they could not really have sold Kira to Star Trek's audience after 9/11, a character who said with conviction all the way to the end of the show, yeah I targeted civilians with bombs, I'll show you how so you can do it and I'd do it all over again, they were making waffles for the SS, if you're honest about the devil nation United States you can't get squeamish over 9/11. Which was easier for most of the writers to sell themselves, too, working as they were in the late-'90s sci-fi-television realm of evil suit-wearing government-agent villains and yet to enjoy the social dividends of play-acting reluctant belief in an ancient war between civilizations.

cars posted:

Dax is at the office with Kira and is like, Hey, um so, does it really, like, change a person to murder someone?

didn't her previous hosts kill people? you'd think she'd have a pretty good idea by that point

for what it's worth, anything that's extreme racist garbage in Jadzia-Worf is effectively redeemed by Kira-Odo, cf. S7E14 Chimera

Synergy posted:

didn't her previous hosts kill people? you'd think she'd have a pretty good idea by that point

Whatever was convenient. One of the Dax hosts was a pilot and was apparently saw a decent amount of ground combat at some point, but that second part wasn't invented by the writers until the point in the show where Jadzia's dead, and he's portrayed briefly before that as a carefree epicurean. The Klingon-kin guy was "in battle" a whole bunch I guess, he did swear an oath to cut a guy's heart out and eat it and apparently Jon Colicos believed him, but that's likewise mostly ignored until after Terry Farrell leaves the show. The next season had a story about a one-off murder of passion by a host whose memories were suppressed in other hosts until Jadzia accepts then into herself in a hippie hot tub ritual, but it's a crap episode where she doesn't have any impact on the plot otherwise so later they decided that guy was Hannibal Lecter and kind of had his own locked apartment inside the worm.

The writers are vague from episode to episode about how directly the worm people experience the memories of past lives, in the normal way that Star Trek handles sci-fi concepts, again, it's whatever they need to tell that episode's story. But since Dax became less gnomic and more dynamic starting with the '60s Klingons episode—mainly because that let Farrell earn her main-cast paycheck by acting instead of just smiling or frowning cryptically at other actors in stories supposedly involving her character—most of what Jadzia calls up is like, blood knowledge on how to keep it real with the Klingons, or that she still wants to cuddle her worm person ex-wife. A lot of it was comedy because Farrell has good timing, a weirdly important thing for a Star Trek cast to have, because they like to do comedy but often the jokes aren't funny as written. Deep Space Nine probably had more aggregate comedy talent used more effectively than any other Star Trek thing, though the movies Nicholas Meyer worked on come close. But yeah not a lot of room for musing about how many people Dax had shot.

When Farrell got fed up with one of the bigwigs talking nonstop about her bust size and left to join Ted Danson's latest sitcom, the showrunners went ahead and cleared out their backlog of stories about how several lifetimes of memories would make you a traumatized basket-case. They dumped the new Dax role on Nicole De Boer, whose resume at that point was mostly Kids in the Hall and Cube. She does fine with it, she's talented, but her character when she's first introduced is supposed to be a highly effective and professional psychotherapist who's suddenly regressed into an emotionally unstable child, because they randomly stuck the worm in her for the epic win so it wouldn't die when Jadzia did. Since we never met the person Ezri was before, that angle didn't work, they mostly forget about it and she becomes a perky motormouth '90s-girl character who solves family mysteries and says uncomfortable things to people in between mental breakdowns. So Ezri's the one who gets trained in murderer-murdering by the leering Hannibal Lecter personality, and she's the one in the Battle of Khe Sanh episode musing about how she used to be all these battle-hardened people who played every role in the platoon so now she's a dissociative manic pixie Delta Force or something.

against my better judgement i decided to start watching Voyager and uh... this is going to be a rough ride

i couldn't stop laughing at Janeway immediately putting the Maquis crew in top leadership roles on the ship

Star Trek: Voyager gets better starting at the very last episode of its third season, when the showrunners decided that the show had three main cast members, Ryan, Picardo and Mulgrew, which wasn't a good idea so much as it was committing to a bad one for the sake of any direction for the show at all.

Quality goes bimodal a little while after that, good episodes mixed with just plain terrible ones. The show overall improves again at the very last episode of season 5, when everyone shakes off the better show they could have made in a season-bridging two-parter, and goes on to turn the show into a movie-of-the-week action-comedy, where there are probably fewer good episodes but the average episode isn't nearly as bad as it used to be.

Fan consensus is that season 4 is the best, but I think seasons 5, 6 and 7 are better because they seem to accept the show's gone off the rails.

VOYAGER EPISODES that are GOOD OR OKAY, from a list I made for someone a while back ('GOOD OR OKAY VOYAGER EPISODES'):

⚫ "Heroes and Demons", season 1 (this is just Beowulf with Picardo playing Beowulf)
⚫ "Meld", season 2 (guest-star Brad Dourif)
⚫ "Future's End, pts. 1 & 2", season 3 (guest-star Ed Begley, Jr.)
⚫ "Warlord", season 3 (so-so episode where Lien is allowed to play an interesting character)
⚫ "Macrocosm", season 3 (this is just ALIENS with Mulgrew playing Ripley)
⚫ "Worst-Case Scenario", season 3 (the show takes the piss out of itself over ignoring that half its crew are anti-Starfleet terrorists)
⚫ "Distant Origin", season 3 ('90s version of a '60s Star Trek episode)
⚫ "Scorpion, pt. 1", season 3, and "Scorpion, pt. 2" and "The Gift", season 4 (TV movie introducing Ryan's character, padded out by boring stuff)
⚫ "The Raven", season 4 (PTSD episode about Ryan's character, padded out by boring stuff)
⚫ "Year of Hell, pts. 1 and 2", season 4 (the show takes the piss out of itself over how Voyager still looks like a health spa waiting room after 3+ years sans maintenance)
⚫ "Hunters" and "Prey", season 4 (this is just PREDATOR if the Predators talked, mixed with another decent episode about Ryan's character)
⚫ "The Killing Game, pts. 1 and 2", season 4 (see previous item, add WWII stuff that Mulgrew has fun with, also Garrett Wang is finally given something to do)
○○○ This episode has Ryan's GOAT scene on Voyager, an exchange where her character wields her sadsack, fan-pandering trauma like a sledgehammer
⚫ "Living Witness", season 4 (Picardo-centric show about history as a science; the cast portray their characters as most of the aliens they meet probably see them)
⚫ "Demon", season 4 (TV-friendly body horror)
⚫ "Hope and Fear", season 4 (Ryan/Mulgrew episode about someone trying to make the crew pay for insane reckless endangerment)
⚫ "Extreme Risk", season 5 (Roxann Dawson PTSD episode that sort-of ties into Deep Space Nine)
⚫ "Timeless", season 5 (Garrett Wang PTSD episode, have you noticed a trend yet)
⚫ "Infinite Regress", season 5 (Ryan has to play a bunch of Star Trek aliens about which she knew nothing beforehand, and succeeds)
⚫ "Thirty Days", season 5 (Robert Duncan McNeill goes to jail)
⚫ "Counterpoint", season 5 (silly, but just a good episode for Mulgrew)
⚫ "Latent Image", season 5 (Picardo episode, every character except Picardo's and Ryan's shares a writer-inserted backstory where they're incredibly evil)
⚫ "Bride of Chaotica!", season 5 (fun little episode for everyone on the cast, could have turned out terrible but instead it's good)
⚫ "Bliss", season 5 (Ryan/Picardo episode where everyone else fucks off)
⚫ "Dark Frontier", season 5 (hammy, melodramatic Ryan episode, would be terrible with a lesser actor in the role)
⚫ "Course: Oblivion", season 5 (a sequel to one of the episodes on this list but I won't tell you which one!!)
⚫ "Think Tank", season 5 (guest star George Costanza)
⚫ "Relativity", season 5 (Ryan-centric adventure featuring Mulgrew, sequel to "Future's End", actually kind of funny by intent instead of on accident)
⚫ "Equinox, pt. 1", season 5, and "Equinox, pt. 2", season 6 (the show kills off the better version of itself it can never be)
⚫ "Barge of the Dead", season 6 (weird Roxann Dawson episode about death & Hell, written by Ron Moore, who joined Voyager and quit immediately)
⚫ "Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy", season 6 (Picardo comedy episode)
⚫ "The Voyager Conspiracy", season 6 (Ryan episode that serves as a critical assessment of the show up to that point)
○○○ This is probably my favorite episode, but it only works where it does, in the second-to-last season
⚫ "Pathfinder", season 6 (Next Generation sequel show)
⚫ "Blink of an Eye", season 6 (Picardo tragedy episode)
⚫ "Virtuoso", season 6 (Picardo tragicomedy episode)
⚫ "Tsunkatse", season 6 (bizarrely good Ryan-centric Bloodsport episode, guest starring Dwayne Johnson)
⚫ "Collective", season 6 (Ryan's character becomes a mom)
⚫ "Ashes to Ashes", season 6 (Garrett Wang episode that almost pulls off a high-concept premise about life & death)
⚫ "Child's Play", season 6 (sequel to "Collective", Ryan's character continues to be a mom)
⚫ "Good Shepherd", season 6 (episode about the clock-punchers on Voyager who found themselves stranded for years with their insane bosses)
⚫ "Live Fast and Prosper", season 6 (the show takes the piss out of the entire Star Trek franchise as a commercial enterprise)
⚫ "Life Line", season 6 (Picardo-centric sequel to "Pathfinder")
⚫ "Drive", season 7 (Voyager enters a shuttlecraft in a race and the show abandons what remains of its series premise)
⚫ "Body and Soul", season 7 (Ryan/Picardo episode, the show takes the piss out of the way it sold its best actor to Star Trek fans)
⚫ "Flesh and Blood, pts. 1 and 2", season 7 (sequel to "The Killing Game" that undermines the entire political slant of Star Trek)
⚫ "Shattered", season 7 (after 6+ years of practice, the show metastasizes into self-consuming auto-critique)
⚫ "Prophecy", season 7 (weird Roxann Dawson Klingon episode)
⚫ "The Void", season 7 (posthumous twitch of the "Equinox" show-that-never-was)
⚫ "Workforce, pts. 1 and 2", season 7 (a show about alienation that even kind of works in places??)
⚫ "Human Error", season 7 (the show invents a love story for Ryan's character way too late, a sizzle reel for her post-Voyager career)
⚫ "Author, Author", season 7 (this is just a Data episode from Next Generation with Picardo playing Data)
⚫ "Renaissance Man", season 7 (Picardo/Mulgrew comedy sequel to "Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy")
⚫ "Endgame", season 7 (the show ends as it should, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing)

...so anyway, enjoy watching Star Trek: Voyager, like, up to two-fifths of the time maybe.

Edited by cars ()

admins take note that I have edited this sure-fire winner of a front page story for that purpose

cars posted:

VOYAGER EPISODES that are GOOD OR OKAY, from a list I made for someone a while back ('GOOD OR OKAY VOYAGER EPISODES'):

i just need to know if this skit is better or worse than most episodes of voyager

yeah Voyager is still the worst Star Trek show, you'll notice that out of its first 42 episodes, there are all of two decent ones. Seasons 1 and 2 of Voyager are worse overall than their equivalents from Picard or Discovery, and Enterprise starts off just as bad, but makes up for it with a third and fourth season that are each not only decent goofball genre TV, but each better than any season of Voyager. Enterprise also rubs it in, not only because Voyager's main cast is more talented, but also because season 3 of Enterprise is just a post-9/11 do-over of Voyager's premise that's somehow still an improvement.

If I whittled that Voyager list down to just truly good episodes, it would be much shorter, but since Voyager's also the only Star Trek show where most of the best episodes are blatantly about itself as a project or Star Trek as a franchise, nearly every item would have the disclaimer, "you have to watch _____ and _____ to get it". Which is as damning a critique as you can make about a show that stubbornly rejected serialized story arcs at the same time Deep Space Nine embraced them.

damoj posted:

i just need to know if this skit is better or worse than most episodes of voyager

haven't watched it yet but the answer is "better"

My favorite episode of Voyager, "The Voyager Conspiracy", has Ryan's character saying, "Look, I'm new around here, but this whole show is a plate of tripe, you've abandoned or muddled every part of it except my character and two others, wouldn't it make more sense if it were this other thing?" And Mulgrew and Beltran's characters, the parental couple of the show, react with, "Oh, yeah, that's a lot better." They're ready to shoot each other over it until the episodic status quo asserts itself and it turns out Seven's theory is just a glitch in her robot parts, something easily solved by yet more '90s Star Trek bullshit.

It's a great episode only if you know enough to accept how bad the show is and why, and I don't know that anyone needs to figure that out on purpose.
why can't pavel checkov pronounce V sounds
in the future, russians have polish accents and frenchmen have english accents. it's because of the midichlorians
I'm watching TNG for the first time, weird show. Also does will wheaton ever not wear a ugly sweater.
later on he'll stop wearing ugly sweaters, also you'll have to see him less
I like that everyone finds him irritating.

Edited by Populares ()

i have a lot of thoughts about the episode where the bajorans revert to their caste-system but i'm too exhausted to articulate them

suffice it to say this show isn't as historically materialist as it could be
I always thought of star trek as utopian socialist drivel. I still stand by that.
I wouldn't call it socialist
That Bajoran caste episode isn't great but I like it okay because the terrorist hero character gets told her caste are artists, so she tries to sculpt something and it's just terrible, in this exaggerated way like she's three years old and in preschool, and she gets real pissed off about it which is the most fun thing to watch that actress do as that character.
thinking about when Pottersville psychopath Kira decides she has to kill her Bedford Falls self instead of trying to bang her and she's very grumpy about it, and Nana Visitor leans into the face of the actor she'd marry three years later and stretches her features into an enraged bug-eyed ear-to-ear grin as she stabs her index finger into mid-frame and hisses "QUIET." but at the edge of madness, so it's like five distinct syllables. haha i love that part

cars posted:

I wouldn't call it socialist

it's interesting to see how many star trek characters fetishize bourgeois historical settings in the holodeck. it's never liberation movements like the black panthers or w/e, always just white fantasy positions of power

did everyone magically start sharing resources or was all the exploitation just moved off-world?

Synergy posted:

cars posted:

I wouldn't call it socialist

it's interesting to see how many star trek characters fetishize bourgeois historical settings in the holodeck. it's never liberation movements like the black panthers or w/e, always just white fantasy positions of power

the closest thing you get is the fictional Bell riots, and of course that's all portrayed as a mistake, as if Fred Hampton fell onto a cop's bullet because of time travel or whatever

I imagine the uninspiring settings had something to do with it being a cheap sci fi show
I just started watching The Animated Series, a very good show and worthwhile watch. The Hanna Barbera style animation is not a weak point, the same actors provide the voices (except Walter Koenig), and many of the original writers like DC Fontana and David Gerrold return. The animation also obviously left room for lots more visual and story creativity.

shaka, when the towers fell
sometimes I think about this

Botany Bay
Nuclear-powered vessel of the DY-100 class, which was Earth's standard interplanetary transport of the late 20th century. Named after an infamous Australian penal colony, the S.S. Botany Bay was converted into a "sleeper ship" and launched in 1996 with refugees from the Eugenics Wars, namely Khan Noonien Singh and his band of genetically-bred "supermen." The launch was kept secret in order to not alarm a war-weary population that the tyrant who controlled more than one-fourth of the planet from 1992-96 was still alive. After being defeated in Earth's Eugenics Wars, Khan and his followers hoped to find another world to conquer and rule.

When I smoked a lot of weed every day I thought a good bit for Conan O'Brien would have been to play the scene where Spock and Kirk discuss the virile wild men of the 1990s, but replace the picture of Ricardo Montalban on the monitor with someone new every time, Newt Gingrich, Kato Kaelin, Andy Richter etc.
Deep Space Nine may be a good anime.

cars posted:

Deep Space Nine may be a good anime.

CONFIRMED: Deep Space Nine is a good anime.

"Deep Space Nine is the best of all animes" -Rhizzone poster "shriekingviolet"