#161
change the thread title to "China: A Modern Social-Imperialist Power, Some Experts Say"
#162
change the thread title to "china is the best fuck all the rest"
#163
[account deactivated]
#164

swampman posted:

this thread is still embarrassing


No... U

#165
For the Socialist of another country cannot expose the government and bourgeoisie of a country at war with “his own” nation, and not only because he does not know that country’s language, history, specific features, etc., but also because such exposure is part of imperialist intrigue, and not an internationalist duty.
#166
the repeated dismissal of such critique as purely the idiosyncrasy of first world chauvinists, when the subject in question is the perspective of actively revolutionary movements of the semifeudal peripheral nations, always strikes me as desperately defensive
#167
also lenin in this case is explicitly talking about the conditions of active, military warfare between nations. whatever your stance on the question of the prc's general character, the designs on china by amerikan empire are at this point the predatory strangling of weak nations in "imperialist peace" lenin discusses in the opening theses

the exposures he's talking about are also clearly in context the direct publication of internal state information, not some blanket dismissal of critique as you seem to be implying
#168
i think "active, military warfare", to the extent that such a thing can realistically manifest at all today, is absolutely on the table for a relatively wide sector of the amerikan ruling class and dismissing it out of hand is dishonest. either way, the capacity of core imperial states to make war by other means has dramatically amplified since the time lenin was writing and should be taken seriously given the changed context. this is just thug lessons' "boots on the ground" argument about syria from 2015 or whenever redux
#169
it's absolutely on the table, i have never at any point expressed that the descent into active imperialist military struggle against china is impossible. i don't know why you're accusing me of dishonesty when you're eliding what i actually said

the point is that this is simply not what the current conditions are, by any feasible interpretation. lenin explicitly describes the non-militaristic execution of imperialist goals that we're experiencing now in those very theses. a balance of power in which the agreements of the arch-imperialist powers allows the predatory strangling of the weaker nations

your invocation of "war by other means" is useless in this context -- lenin explicitly and avowedly followed clausewitz, in his direct interpretation war is a continuation of policy by other means. war by other means against the weak nations is the norm of imperialist peace.

i'm clearly not making anything like lessons' argument, the existence of active military mobilisation clearly existed in syria, this isn't some shifting arbitrary principle
#170
but again this also completely irrelevant to the context of what lenin is actually talking about. i agree that no party, western or otherwise, should be publishing the internal policy documents and communications of the prc & its financiers which are not presented for public consumption.

that's what lenin is explicitly discussing in the words preceding swampman's excerpt he conveniently left out, and it's not what anyone here or in any of the relevant revolutionary parties is doing
#171
that's fine i guess but strikes me as bizarrely legalistic. is the distinction really that meaningful? it seems to me that the particulars depend pretty heavily on context, which has shifted dramatically in the intervening century, and that precise details of which precise actions lenin is condoning or not (leaking internal documents, for example) seems like missing the forest for the trees. even more since it's not like anyone here is part of anything like the type of group that lenin was directing, so it strikes me as especially strange to take detailed cues about which actions are "ok" at direct face value as opposed to gauging the goals he was writing for and the context he was writing them in, and taking general cues as opposed to specific, direct instructions. this is all to say that i don't find the specific case of secret documents or whatever to be particularly relevant or meaningful here

Edited by c_man ()

#172
it isn't relevant or meaningful here which is why it was stupid for swampman to post it as if it was a relevant rebuke to anyone!!

lenin simply wasn't arguing whatever is being implied he was, and if you want to argue that your interpretation is in the spirit of lenin's intention then you have to actually argue that instead of posting an out of context quote from an intellectual authority as if it's an own on everyone

you can make whatever extrapolations about lenin's intention you like but none of them are captured in the sole fragment that was posted
#173
I apologize for my incendiary post.
#174
hi whats going on itt
#175
I think we are figuring out "What is Trotskyism"
#176
ok but after that can somebody help me with my email
#177
https://monthlyreview.org/2020/10/01/u-s-china-trade-war/

Really phenomenal analysis of US-China trade and the economic impetus behind “trade war” rhetoric from the US. I’ll highlight one bit but definitely read all of it

What our results show is that the United States, as a world hegemonic power, is finding it increasingly difficult to maintain its advantage and come out on top of this competition, and therefore to bear all the implications of free trade, for which it once defined the rules to its advantage. China has indeed succeeded in significantly reducing the importance of this unequal exchange, with its disadvantage in the transfer of wealth gradually diminishing: the proportion of this unfavorable transfer in the Chinese added value fell from -3.7 percent to -0.9 percent between 1995 and 2014. As a matter of fact, China had to trade fifty hours of Chinese labor for one hour of U.S. labor in 1995, but only seven in 2014.

On top of this, the sectoral analyses that can be drawn from the application of our second method of calculating unequal exchange are very enlightening. Although forty-three out of the fifty-five sectors of activity (78 percent of them) considered by our study between 1995 and 2014 highlight transfers of value directed from China to the United States (the most significant being textile, clothing, and leather-goods manufacturing, as well as the manufacturing of furniture and other supplies), twelve other sectors are at the origin of transfers of values going in the opposite direction—that is, operating to the detriment of the United States. These latter activities include: the manufacturing of computer, electronic, and optical products (with $6.9 billion transferred from the United States to China in 2014); agriculture and farming; hunting and hunting-related activities ($3.1 billion); the manufacturing of motor vehicles and trailer and semi-trailer services ($1.1 billion); and the manufacturing of basic pharmaceutical products and pharmaceutical preparations ($422 million, still calculated for 2014).

#178
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#179
October’s MR edition is all about China and is all extremely good. Not all of the articles are available for free yet, if anyone wants any of them posted in the pdf forum let me know. Some get unpaywalled on the 19th and 26th if you don’t pay your aristobucks to John Bellamy Foster

https://monthlyreview.org/2020/10/01/toward-delinking-an-alternative-chinese-path-amid-the-new-cold-war/

https://monthlyreview.org/2020/10/01/tracing-a-trajectory-of-hope-in-rural-communities-in-china/

https://monthlyreview.org/2020/10/01/revisiting-collectivism-and-rural-governance-in-china/

https://monthlyreview.org/2020/10/01/negotiating-debt/
#180
i also have a MR sub if anyone wants to DM me for an article from this month or from the archives
#181
A mysterious free newspaper just showed up in my mailbox, thought its contents were exactly what this thread is looking for!





Sounds pretty serious! I had my doubts about your pitch for a "dark and gritty modern fantasy" campaign Greg, but that's a neat concept. Rolling up a character now.



My Paladin of CIA casts "Detect Evil" on the diplomat and *dice rolling noises* yup, Always Chaotic Evil. Thought you could slip one by me with all this "Socialism" business huh Greg? Your Dungeon Master skills are weak, now the so-called "Peace Ambassador" will answer to my +2 Long Sword.



Happy birthday Greg, I hope this book helps with your planning! I hear it includes not only the standard monster manual content but also lots of player class and race options, like the cunning "Exotic Oriental" and the badass "Libertarian-Socialist," a wizard antihero who uses the dark magics of the enemy for the good of the Free Market.



How much longer long will the world tolerate the social imperialism of the PRC's cruel monopoly on the plant Bamboo, which famously does not grow anywhere else in Asia due to the machinations of their evil druids? Roll for initiative.
#182
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#183
Not Sure the Falun Gong line is that the CCP is social-imperialist
#184

cars posted:

Not Sure the Falun Gong line is that the CCP is social-imperialist


sounds like a skill check. roll either Knowledge: Orientalism or Profession: State Department. Divination magic is also acceptable of course, but you might want to ration your spells per day because we're not getting a proper long rest until the US election finishes.

#185
Here's a recent article from the National Democratic Front of the Philippines on how they see China's rising global
capitalist expansion. Some of the points made might have already been treaded here but nonetheless may be of interest to know how they're seeing it. I would also note that articles here seem to be a bit more rhetorical and for a (relatively) wider audience.

https://liberation.ndfp.org/editorial/crouching-dragon-no-more-china-rears-for-global-stomping-grounds/

However way this pans out, the Philippines has a tremendous stake and risk: no thanks to the successive puppet presidents and greedy bureaucrat capitalists. While the country has remained as a US neocolony, the Duterte regime also practically behaves like a vassal to China. ###



In a recent CPP statement about the turnaround success of the New People's Army, they also called on their forces to target Chinese companies and military bases that are actively involved in exploiting the country and its lands:

In particular, the revolutionary movement must take effort to frustrate plans of the Duterte regime to allow the further expansion of Chinese companies, especially those involved in the construction of seven Chinese military bases and in the plunder and destruction of Philippine marine resources in the West Philippine Sea in violation of Philippine sovereignty. Some of these same Chinese companies are involved in some big-ticket infrastructure projects for the construction of mining roads and dams that are encroaching deeper and deeper into the ancestral lands of the national minorities and forests in various parts of the country. These infrastructure projects not only displace thousands of peasants and minorities from their lands, they also wreak havoc to the natural ecosystem of the country’s remaining forests.



https://cpp.ph/statements/make-the-duterte-fascist-regime-bleed-from-a-thousand-cuts-mount-more-tactical-offensives-nationwide/

Not to say the Filipino communists right just because they're revolutionaries from the "periphery". But one has to wonder, at some point, maybe, the CCP, isn't all its been cracked up to be by some?

#186
is it time to start calling good-faith posters itt more CIA than the rest of us? food for thought posted on my iPhone from the caf at Langley.
#187
Cozy friendly/artsy posters are NSA, effortposters are FBI or MI5, rude and rowdy flamebait are CIA/MI6, and shitposters are Mossad

lurkers are CSIS, they're actually supposed to be posting but too scared :(
#188
i'm still getting paid out by a trust set up by the Ohkrana in 1906
#189
[account deactivated]
#190
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#191

Acdtrux posted:

US and other superpowers have openly and discreetly backed the Hongkong protests. The people of Hongkong can very well accept such support



I'm afraid this is not a dialectical statement :/



i didnt know CPP were pro-Kurd

#192
Came across a point from Torkil Lauesen, he made the point that China isn’t acting in an imperialist way because they are not the ones ultimately benefiting from the exploitation of natural resources in other countries. Value is ultimately being transferred to the US and Europe, with China acting as an intermediary. China is doing it to strengthen their position within the global value transfer system.

Value transfers aren’t just about resources, it’s baked into the unequal exchange and the artificially low prices of consumer goods enjoyed by the global north. The global north consumer/bourgeois class alliance are the main beneficiaries so far, not the Chinese proletariat or national bourgeoisie.
#193
i mean it's true that value transfers aren't just about natural resources, but it's not just about the unequal exchange of commodities either. unspoken in this argument is the extraction of surplus value captured by capital export, which is the core of the social-imperialist thesis. i don't think anyone is reducing china's role to purely predatory resource extraction
#194
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#195

liceo posted:

€uro-amerikkkan imperialists cutting africa up:



China: A Modern "Social-Imperialist Power", gluing it back together with train tracks:



Most of these lines go to ports to export raw materials. That being said I don't think this map is accurate.

#196

liceo posted:

€uro-amerikkkan imperialists cutting africa up:



China: A Modern "Social-Imperialist Power", gluing it back together with train tracks:



is the argument here that imperialists arent known to build railroads?

#197
that map doesn't really tell us much of anything without some actual analysis of what those railways are transporting and to where, who owns and operates them, what stake china has in them versus the countries they're in, etc etc
#198
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#199
after reading this thread i have come to the conclusion that china is bad and america is good, actually.
#200

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

after reading this thread i have come to the conclusion that china is bad and america is good, actually.



Joe Biden is more communist than Xi Jinping