#1881
Online
Post rating: +
I think people like Rania did learn a lesson for this and wont be dupes at the next Libya/Syria, because I really do think the attempted Syrian intervention opened a lot of peoples eyes for good to the farce of liberal humanitarian interventionism
#1882
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: +

kamelred posted:



all of this is dumb. being right isn't genetic and people are often wrong before they're right, and when they stop being wrong they should be encouraged to be right from that point on

#1883
chickeon
Post rating: ~
it'd be nice if they apologized at least to those they libeled and tried to silence, ostracize etc. it's like their being personally wrong was the only consequence of the enormous propaganda campaign they participated in, while in reality their contributions to the discursive climate whereby even the most modest and polite attempts to tell the truth and combat imperial propaganda were met with vitriol and dogpiled by the racist bloodthirsty times and vice reading cohort. Like at least apologize to the goddamned actual Syrians you slandered, some of which probably died as an indirect result of their actions, and all of whom had to sit and watch their home bleed under uncle sam's bootheel. they should be completely horrified and disgusted with themselves and begging for forgiveness in tears.
#1884
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: ~
i think that'd be fine yeah. but what i'm responding to here is the idea that because people were wrong in the past they should be written off in the future when they're taking serious steps not to make or promote the same mistakes in the future.

it's a good way to end up tailing the masses is pretty much the problem with that.
#1885
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: ~
the test of this resolve of accepting the validity of changing points of view is, Ironically, whether you still maintain it when some people backslide, which some of them inevitably will. it is imo absolutely necessary to maintain it for the purpose of socialist politics.
#1886
Post rating: +

cars posted:

i think that'd be fine yeah. but what i'm responding to here is the idea that because people were wrong in the past they should be written off in the future when they're taking serious steps not to make or promote the same mistakes in the future.

it's a good way to end up tailing the masses is pretty much the problem with that.



her own explicitly stated account carefully ducks the words "wrong", "dumb", and "bad", (incidentally this is maybe the sort of pat, abrasive shit that might disqualify someone from whining about how we regard and respond to the shortcomings of various comrades) etc. and shifts blame outwards to a vaguely defined group of Deceivers. whats serious about this? in fact she didn't even say "i was tricked" by way of apologizing, but rather--insanely!--as a rhetorical tactic used to establish credibility. like "well they had me fooled for a while, but now i Get It. i was like you were, but today i have a much hotter take."

something other than the date should probably change before we regard this as anything other than nothing, right? because its not like it gets any easier. the people responsible for such perfidy aren't going to get any worse at doing it, the circumstances that make the interventionist game so appealing in times of crisis aren't going to subside. i don't think the intellectual task of someone in her position--or ours--is to develop ever better sources, to get ever closer to reality, to be ever more rational, more skeptical, more clear-headed, but rather to develop an understanding of our own culpability, complacency, and responsibility as a class and to incorporate that understanding into our strategy at the level of organizing. khalek doesn't have to self-immolate or something but without the crucial insight that our thinking results from our circumstances and not our access to Better Facts, getting it right on imperialism by a resolving to be a better journalist is a seriously losing bet. its just a very, very difficult thing to do. no one is going to be mad if she does but there's no downside to assuming she wont either so i return my original question: who cares?

#1887
Post rating: +
It's also far less forgivable on Syria than on Libya since opposition to Syria comes not out of genuine anti-imperialism but the fraction of the bourgeoisie who oppose the unwinnable war years in. Libya was a "success" for imperialism and how many people actually came out then to oppose the invasion from a left-liberal standpoint? How many people were "fooled" by Syria when it was the exact same justification and propaganda effort as Libya? Opposing the Vietnam war in 1970 wasn't courageous but opposing it in 1964 was. Not that anti-war activists should be condemned because they were too late, they should mostly be ignored because they'll disappear just like everyone on the bandwagon did in 1973.
#1888
Post rating: ~
I better get to the bottom of this Rohingya business before it's too late to be courageous then.
#1889
Post rating: +
Given the ostracization Khalek has been subjected to for her views on Syria I feel like she won't go back to supporting intervention, simply because she's probably burned too many bridges at this point. I know it's a crass analysis but along with Blumenthal and Norton they've all been branded as conspiracy theorist kooks and apologists for authoritarians so there'd be no stake in their supporting, say, an invasion of DPRK. And FWIW they seem staunchly opposed to any fuckery in Venezuela, unless I'm missing something.
#1890
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: +
http://gizmodo.com/former-facebook-workers-we-routinely-suppressed-conser-1775461006?rev=1462799465508

In other instances, curators would inject a story—even if it wasn’t being widely discussed on Facebook—because it was deemed important for making the network look like a place where people talked about hard news. “People stopped caring about Syria,” one former curator said. “[And] if it wasn’t trending on Facebook, it would make Facebook look bad.”

#1891
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: ~

rolaids posted:

Given the ostracization Khalek has been subjected to for her views on Syria I feel like she won't go back to supporting intervention, simply because she's probably burned too many bridges at this point. I know it's a crass analysis but along with Blumenthal and Norton they've all been branded as conspiracy theorist kooks and apologists for authoritarians so there'd be no stake in their supporting, say, an invasion of DPRK. And FWIW they seem staunchly opposed to any fuckery in Venezuela, unless I'm missing something.



It's also an absurd and idealist way to think about Ben Norton, who started down the right path when he was fired from his job after blowback from a story he wrote that was critical of Israel and its U.S. lobby

#1892
Post rating: ~
get rAnia KHalek an account
#1893
Online
Post rating: ~

ffs
#1894
Post rating: +
I sort of understand why MoA or Sharmine Narwani see Ben Norton et al as opportunistic, and naming your podcast "Moderate Rebels" is in pretty bad taste. But not as bad as pretending they're part of a psyop conspiracy with Taryn Fivek and Adam Johnson, and using the idea to try to sabotage American ML parties. I keep on having to purge my timeline of these cultists, it's kind of freaking me out.
#1895
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: ~

marimite posted:

But not as bad as pretending they're part of a psyop conspiracy with Taryn Fivek and Adam Johnson, and using the idea to try to sabotage American ML parties.



oh so that's what's going on here? i should always assume there's some sort of online drama gravity bending the light when people are seeing things i don't i suppose

#1896
Post rating: ~

cars posted:

marimite posted:

But not as bad as pretending they're part of a psyop conspiracy with Taryn Fivek and Adam Johnson, and using the idea to try to sabotage American ML parties.

oh so that's what's going on here? i should always assume there's some sort of online drama gravity bending the light when people are seeing things i don't i suppose



Look at umfuld, earwulf, redkahina, truths_pants. Not an exhaustive list, there's ~20-30 accounts at the center of the meme (some of them are clearly socks) and then kind a lot of people sort of in the orbit of the meme repeat parts of it. As in, it's leaking real bad.

Edited by marimite ()

#1897
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: +

marimite posted:

Look at umfuld, earwulf, redkahina, truths_pants.



i genuinely appreciate the report from the outer rim but you'll understand if i don't

#1898
chickeon
Post rating: +
lol http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2017/09/special-report-elite-us-forces-say-dont-abandon-syrian-kurd-fighters/140984/?oref=d-mostread
#1899
Post rating: ~

cars posted:

marimite posted:

Look at umfuld, earwulf, redkahina, truths_pants.

i genuinely appreciate the report from the outer rim but you'll understand if i don't



Yeah, twitter is stupid, I can see why this forum avoids it.

#1900
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: +
we still need to buy car conspiracy guy an account so he can meet me, the architect of all his pain
#1901
Post rating: +
Just look at urdblaag, groinplatylus, MLsephiroth
#1902
Black Belt
Post rating: +
thought experiment time. If your local was building a united front between the local and other orgs, you'd try to solve coalition problems like who is involved and who is not with chats with the SC and Internal, not posting about organizers there being shitty on fb and twitter. instead, party members are violating demcen on the national stage and talking shit online without attempting to go through any internal channels to resolve the issue whatsoever.

leninists acting like anarchists. i expect it from people who arent organizers but yeesh.

some of the anti-psl chatter is being spread by canadian maoists, whom i have to assume are a bit salty about their party splitting on issues no one understands, but its mostly kahina/earwulf/greaves, per the usual

Edited by JohnBeige ()

#1903
Post rating: ~
I'm sorry. Local coalition building isn't going so hot here either. Turns out a lot of people are more interested in cosplay factionalism than doing the work of getting anything done, who knew.
#1904
[account deactivated]
#1905
Post rating: ~
Kurdistan on track to become Israel part two soon?
#1906
Black Belt
Post rating: ~
the iraq side or the syria side
#1907
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: ~

JohnBeige posted:

the iraq side or the syria side

Hell,

#1908
chickeon
Post rating: ~
https://www.rt.com/news/404365-us-special-forces-isis/
#1909
Post rating: +
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2017/09/turkey-kurdish-commander-says-us-should-stay-in-syria.html
#1910
Post rating: ~

colddays posted:

Kurdistan on track to become Israel part two soon?



https://www.rt.com/usa/405070-tillerson-kurdistan-independence-vote/

is someone else from the state department gonna come out and say "please ignore mr tillerson's comments" now?

#1911
Post rating: +
my brain DOES not work. PLEASE help me to stop supporting ""rojava"". seeing marxist-leninists and anarchists cooperating is so Good to me, even though i know its Pentagon bullshit. it hurts physically and emotionally to be a commununist. its as though a Candy is dangled in front of me , but i cannot eat it
#1912
Post rating: ~
or a pillow is in front of you but you can not lay on it
#1913
[account deactivated]
#1914
Post rating: +
australia tied with syria in the world cup qualifier tonight so as far as im concerned the conflict is just beginning
#1915
Post rating: ~
my 70-something year old father spluttered his outrage to me the other day that we are playing sports with syria, because "theyve spent the past 5 years killing their own people! it's a bloody disgrace!!" the best response i could muster is we play the saudis too and thats a disgrace but hey, its fifa, what are ya gonna do
#1916
Post rating: +
i would let him know that training for sports is very hard and that there are necessary sacrifices that must be made.
#1917
Online
Post rating: +
#1918
Post rating: ~
oh kaep. what is it the kids say these days? stay in your lane
#1919
Post rating: +
unproblematic fave... problematized
#1920
Online
Post rating: +
assad curse strikes agaijn