glomper_stomper posted:

definitely yes to the first thing. the latter is more a case of the breakdown of the western european left during the 80's, regrouping under third way policies in the 90's, and then a rejection of that in the form of parties like podemos, syriza, die linke, and parti de gauche after the crash. they've been consistently pro-imperialist and lacking in any programs that would actually revive social-democracy, even if they wanted to. that's their real failure. in the case of syriza, i don't think you can even say they've actually worked on national reforms.

well on the 'western european left' in the '80s and '90s, again the class analysis of these social democratic parties and eurocommunist parties is lacking, alongside the lack of the anti-imperialist line. i disagree with the idea that podemos e.a. reject the third way, as fundamentally with many of the points the third way makes - ESPECIALLY on the question of imperialism - the new social movements don't reject it either. while syriza eventually didn't succeed in the national reforms (but that's a whole other discussion on the national lefts in the eu and how they within the eu have to find a way to combat the european bourgeoisie), its platform was based on anti-crisis reforms.

the us left is strategically split on parliamentarism. most self-identifying democratic socialists really just want a pluralistic capitalism with stable welfare programs patterned after scandinavia and western europe. there can't be any mass mobilizations without organizing but mass mobilizations, as tactical instruments, are often directionless and uncoordinated from an ideological or political standpoint, which means they can sometimes turn into spectacles managed by a bunch of careerists who have nothing to do with real struggle.

ok, i misunderstood your point of political mobilisations to mean the big organizing of sanders, not the other mass mobilisations

not just the bolivarians but every single latin american socialist movement that has experienced protracted periods of guerrilla warfare under dictatorship and successfully re-emerged to take power in democratic elections. they've established a continuity and a dialectic between the armed clandestine movement and electoralism. there are hundreds of political prisoners in the us who were imprisoned for taking part in the armed struggle here and there are some that have been released. it's entirely possible to extend the historical experience of the armed struggle to grassroots survival programs and electoral campaigns without capitulating to reaction. chicano, new afrikan, and indigenous organizations are already doing this to various degrees.

this is something that doesn't feel right to me in the points you're making, as in many cases, these have just led to the same socialdemocratic illusions that the eu left has. the ps in chile, the pt in brazil, the trade-unionism of the MAS, the FMLN, ... even the EU left has experiences with protracted people's war that also led to social democracy: the portuguese left in the PS, the greek and cypriotic lefts in PASOK, Synaspismos and AKEL, the irish with Sinn Fein, in similar conditions as those of the yanqui puppets in latin amerika. i agree that it's possible to do this and not capitulate to capitalism though.

social-democracy doesn't have to be completed in order to see how it's collapsed in europe and muddled any sort of substantial progress there. there's a reason the DSA has had to dig up the corpses of FDR and debs to justify their politics; it's because they're totally divorced from any historical movement beyond the 20's and 40's, that also doesn't see its salvation in the imperialist state (less so in the case of debs, i guess). consciousness needs to be better and it'll be improved once there is an organized movement capable of bridging the historical and ideological gaps in demsoc thinking and subjecting the european left, and the way they project its characteristics onto conditions in the us, to relentless criticism.

i agree w this point, but then i just ask: in what ways is the PSL for example lacking this? as iirc you're currently in the process of creating your own local org?

if the DSA were to engage in talks with all the communist parties of nepal, it would at least bring them closer to an understanding of class forces in armed and parliamentary struggle.

i don't know if that's the case for a party that from its inception does not start with the class analysis or the structures to even discuss class forces

yes, which is why i mentioned that the experience of social-democracy in europe projects all the mistakes that a social-democratic movement would inevitably make in contemporary conditions.

agreed

afaik, the communist left has been making the same sort of mistakes in europe as in the us. i think the only difference is that the developed left parties in europe have managed to absorb more dropouts from the communist movement.

i actually have the complete opposite feeling. i think part of the communist left (part of the IMCWP left at least), especially since 2008, has grasped the necessity of combining struggles to continue the growth of the communist left, while using the mass mobilisation tactics of left-reformists. left-reformists don't absorb the 'dropouts', but new formerly apolitical masses altogether.

there's a qualitative difference between bolivarian communes and the NGO "people power" of the us and europe. in the context of electoralism, there would have to be a shift from making "people power" into a dependency of the imperialist state to creating new forms of power that wield electoralism in order to gain a political advantage in relation to the state.

fair point

i think anyone who was in the vicinity of the sanders campaign grasps how it worked and how so many younger/working people were mobilized. he articulated a program that could've possibly supplanted a sneering, decadent form of neoliberalism, when it was sufficiently obvious that neoliberal policies lacked an economic base, and he was the embodiment of a modest, petty-bourgeois paternalism next to a ravenous parasite like clinton. his campaign's close links with grassroots organizations also allowed for a greater level of political engagement and activity than anyone else during the election.

you can be popular on your platform but still not reach anyone. two people of the sanders campaign wrote their evaluation of the campaign and it's actually really good! i think everyone in the rhizzone should get it, it's called rules for revolutionnaries. it's more complex than what you're saying here at least

however, his entire platform was predicated on a new "new deal", a redistribution of wealth by the state, and the development of more state-backed, labor-aristocratic unions, which would allow imperialism to absorb more forms of popular power rather than expand them. in that sense, it was 100% pro-imperialist and you can't really "tweak" it to be more "diverse" or "anti-imperialist". but you can point out all those little things about neoliberalism and austerity and build a program for politically empowering independent unions, mass organizations, and popular councils to really take control of their own shit.

agreed, apart from your point on it being impossible to reach a diverse group even without an explicit anti-imperialist line at the foreground of a platform

wasted posted:

http://www.dsausa.org/the_case_for_solidarity_with_the_syrian_revolution_dl

that take is almost as bad as this take on the takes about that take

https://medium.com/@adamproctor/we-cannot-win-before-we-win-70c3d6cc74b7

glomper_stomper posted:

most self-identifying democratic socialists really just want a pluralistic capitalism with stable welfare programs patterned after scandinavia and western europe

This has become one of the oddest things to me about them because sure, this was cutting edge goal-setting for the liberal-left a decade ago, but most of them are now extremely online and you'd think all their favorite weirdos cracking on Macron would make them think harder about it because like... he's the President of France, and his whole deal is the demolition of those programs alongside all the governments of the states they admire.

And you can go on his Wikipedia page and right there in the little box under his picture it says he was Parti socialiste 2006-2009, and then you click the name of the party and their logo is a white fist holding a red rose.

Edited by cars (July 27, 2017 05:20:58)

marlax78 posted:

cars posted:

2) the likeliest explanation for a group of naive college-educated self-described socialists turning into naked imperialist cheerleaders remains a clumsy ISO takeover, so sure let's go with that.

i know what you're hinting at here, but is there actually no basis for this claim?

one of the two authors is a baby leftist here. met with one of their organizers i work with, who argues that the local is largely opposed to the position ('its like its 2011 again or something') but theres a lot of unaffiliated trots in the org because the org's base is college campuses and academia is infested with trots. the local is going to have a discussion based around the PSL's 'Socialists and War' pamphlet which is interesting.

I personally doubt entryism is being done as an intentional thing, since ISO and DSA both have prohibitions against dual carding (DSA's is explicitly anti demcen) and because ive heard of PSL members in DSA, despite that orgs prohibition on it as well. my reading of this is that a bunch of people joined every org and didnt bother reading the constitutions, an issue most prevalent with at-large members due to the lack of preexisting local organizers. unless one of you is suggesting this is a pre-convention psyop, which is possible but eh.

As a higher education student living in England, you can apply for a Disabled Students’ Allowance (DSA) if you have a disability, including a:

long-term health condition
mental health condition
specific learning difficulty, eg dyslexia

You must meet the definition of disability under the Equality Act 2010.

The support you get depends on your individual needs and not on income.

it is thus, with heavy heart that i must confess that I am extremely pro-DSA