#481
Post rating: ~

glomper_stomper posted:

i agree. we progressives should side with repressive governments in the imperialist core


we don't need to side with either

#482
Post rating: +

Panopticon posted:

glomper_stomper posted:

i agree. we progressives should side with repressive governments in the imperialist core

we don't need to side with either



a reading group in milwaukee meets in a coffee shop to sign their petition against assad AND obama, these 13 signatures strike the imperialist core like tomahawk missiles as they oppose both isis and the government standing in the way of a genocide. their work for the day is done as they sip their decaf caramel cappacinos

#483
Post rating: ~

pogfan1996 posted:

Panopticon posted:
glomper_stomper posted:
i agree. we progressives should side with repressive governments in the imperialist core
we don't need to side with either


a reading group in milwaukee meets in a coffee shop to sign their petition against assad AND obama, these 13 signatures strike the imperialist core like tomahawk missiles as they oppose both isis and the government standing in the way of a genocide. their work for the day is done as they sip their decaf caramel cappacinos


at least they managed to get thru the day without cheering on genocide against national minorities

#484
Post rating: -----
*infantile leftism that objectively aids imperialism*


*meaningful national revolution*
#485
Post rating: +
the debate on syria in the western left brings a lot of things to a head... some think that #allimperialismmatters and things like disappearing 4 million people in iraq is ancient history granpa so russia bombing alqaida is the crime of the century and hey we in the west have this big ole military so antiwar means shoot down russian jets or just give alqaida the missiles to do that themselves.

myself i like to think that looking at history as objectively as i can the west is monstrous (if syria is a class bully nato is the big class bully paedophile teacher and covering up school principle rolled into one) and i have formed an antiimperial position based on this.

its sad and weird looking at the #aleppo pr campaigns and seeing how effective they are at getting not just dopey gullible people to react but also people who should know better (i saw a uk black revolutionary group freaking out about 'anti western purism' yesterday when jeremy corbyn got heckled by pro war protestors and an anti war demo)

i think if the anti imperial left upped its game it could lance this pro war pus
#486
Post rating: +
actual anarchists or even trots would be better to argue with than these notions panopticon dreams up, its obvious this starry eyed naivety has never met real life conversation let alone actual organising let alone become part of pkk strategy get a different hobby bozo
#487
Post rating: -

xipe posted:

actual anarchists or even trots would be better to argue with than these notions panopticon dreams up, its obvious this starry eyed naivety has never met real life conversation let alone actual organising let alone become part of pkk strategy get a different hobby bozo


and you are a psycho

#488
hi
Post rating: +
saddam was a US ally when he committed genocide against the Kurds and assad isn't committing genocide.
#489
[account deactivated]
#490
Post rating: ~

HenryKrinkle posted:

saddam was a US ally when he committed genocide against the Kurds and assad isn't committing genocide.


true. might have been helpful for pogfan to have mentioned that in his article about how wonderful saddam's government was tho

#491
hi
Post rating: +
the blog post does mention Saddam's butchery of the Iraqi Communists and his utility to the US in the Iran-Iraq War. it also states that the US turned against Saddam when it became clear he invested too much of his oil revenue in national development and was aligning himself too independently from the US backed global order. none of this is to say he was a socialist, or even a consistent anti-imperialist. would you dispute the notion that his govt. was worth defending from US/GCC onslaughts beginning in the Gulf War?
#492
Post rating: ~
iraq should not have been defended, and the western governments should have been attacked for selling saddam weapons
#493
hi
Post rating: +
really? the systematic destruction of Iraq's civilian infrastructure in the Gulf War? the decade-long crippling sanctions that denied Iraqis water purification equipment and medicines? the 2003 invasion and occupation that... do i even need to go into this?

the response to all the above atrocities is not to go into the old bill hicks routine about "we just looked at the receipts" and then claim it's why we have a "duty to oppose Saddam now."
#494
Post rating: -
even the ussr supported resolution 678. it's a shame that iraq was led by a lunatic dictator who put his ego over the welfare of his people.
#495
Post rating: +
You sound indistinguishable from Hillary Clinton
#496
[account deactivated]
#497
Post rating: +

AP FACT CHECK: Trump wrong that Assad fights IS
OCT. 9, 2016 10:41 PM EDT



WASHINGTON (AP) — A claim from the second presidential debate and how it stacks up with the facts:

DONALD TRUMP: "I don't like Assad at all. But Assad is killing ISIS. Russia is killing ISIS."

THE FACTS: Not true. Syria's President Bashar Assad considers the Islamic State group to be among numerous "terrorist" groups that threaten his government, but his military is not fighting them. It is focused on combatting Syrian opposition groups, some of which are supported by the United States. The fight against the Islamic State militants is being waged by a U.S.-led coalition, with help from Turkey, by training, advising and equipping Syrian Arab and Kurdish fighters. While Moscow asserts that it is fighting the Islamic State extremists in Syria, the vast majority of its airstrikes have targeted opposition groups threatening the Assad government.
#498
Post rating: +

Panopticon posted:

at least they managed to get thru the day without cheering on genocide against national minorities


here's some questions m8

1. what genocide has assad committed
2. why does the syrian communist party support assad insofar as he is defending syria against the current imperialist onslaught
3. does it matter at all to you that assad's government is democratically elected and is still popularly supported by the people of syria
4. doesn't it make you at least suspicious when you see all the documented evidence that the "opposition rebels" rely totally on western & gulf support
5. did you start to fetishise the kurds before or after they became a US ally
6. do you think syria is an exception to the rule that marxists should rely on materialist analysis to understand things rather than imperialist catchphrases and talking points

#499
Post rating: ~

Petrol posted:

Panopticon posted:
at least they managed to get thru the day without cheering on genocide against national minorities

here's some questions m8

1. what genocide has assad committed
2. why does the syrian communist party support assad insofar as he is defending syria against the current imperialist onslaught
3. does it matter at all to you that assad's government is democratically elected and is still popularly supported by the people of syria
4. doesn't it make you at least suspicious when you see all the documented evidence that the "opposition rebels" rely totally on western & gulf support
5. did you start to fetishise the kurds before or after they became a US ally
6. do you think syria is an exception to the rule that marxists should rely on materialist analysis to understand things rather than imperialist catchphrases and talking points



1. i was referring to saddam, the article pogfan linked to didn't even mention iraq's imperialism towards kurds
2. i dont know
3. i doubt you have a very good source for the claim considering how shitty reports on opinion polling in syria are http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17155349
4. no http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Syrian_defectors#Syrian_civil_war
5. before
6. no

#500
Post rating: +

Panopticon posted:

Petrol posted:

Panopticon posted:
at least they managed to get thru the day without cheering on genocide against national minorities

here's some questions m8

1. what genocide has assad committed
2. why does the syrian communist party support assad insofar as he is defending syria against the current imperialist onslaught
3. does it matter at all to you that assad's government is democratically elected and is still popularly supported by the people of syria
4. doesn't it make you at least suspicious when you see all the documented evidence that the "opposition rebels" rely totally on western & gulf support
5. did you start to fetishise the kurds before or after they became a US ally
6. do you think syria is an exception to the rule that marxists should rely on materialist analysis to understand things rather than imperialist catchphrases and talking points

1. i was referring to saddam, the article pogfan linked to didn't even mention iraq's imperialism towards kurds
2. i dont know
3. i doubt you have a very good source for the claim considering how shitty reports on opinion polling in syria are http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17155349
4. no http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Syrian_defectors#Syrian_civil_war
5. before
6. no


1. i'm glad we agree that assad is not guilty of genocide
2. perhaps you should read and consider this interview if you haven't already https://www.liberationnews.org/communists-defend-syrian-sovereignty-html/
3. accuracy of any particular poll aside, does the legitimacy of the democratic government of syria matter to you
4. a list of SAA defectors isn't a response to my question
5. what about the rest of syria. is kurdistan meant to defend them
6. well i wish you would do some

#501
Post rating: ~

Panopticon posted:

iraq should not have been defended, and the western governments should have been attacked for selling saddam weapons



#502
Post rating: +
For one thing the Kurdish regime is oppressing minorities within its region, and for another thing it has mostly stayed out of the war on Syria, focusing mainly on daesh and Turkey.

So this is not only a dumb but irrelevant discussion track.

Kurds make up 8%of the Syrian population you can't just ignore the fate of 25 million people because it doesn't fit with a fluffy story you can tell yourself.
#503
Post rating: ~
As far as I can tell only the trots are bold enough to come out and say they support alqaida. The ngo complex in my area still hide that they are calling for giving missiles to alqaida to shoot down government jets.
#504
Post rating: ~

xipe posted:

the Kurdish regime

Lol.

#505
Post rating: ~
lol as well to the rest of that post. you're weird man you shouldn't read so many blogs.
#506
Post rating: +

elias posted:

AP FACT CHECK: Trump wrong that Assad fights IS
OCT. 9, 2016 10:41 PM EDT



WASHINGTON (AP) — A claim from the second presidential debate and how it stacks up with the facts:

DONALD TRUMP: "I don't like Assad at all. But Assad is killing ISIS. Russia is killing ISIS."

THE FACTS: Not true. Syria's President Bashar Assad considers the Islamic State group to be among numerous "terrorist" groups that threaten his government, but his military is not fighting them. It is focused on combatting Syrian opposition groups, some of which are supported by the United States. The fight against the Islamic State militants is being waged by a U.S.-led coalition, with help from Turkey, by training, advising and equipping Syrian Arab and Kurdish fighters. While Moscow asserts that it is fighting the Islamic State extremists in Syria, the vast majority of its airstrikes have targeted opposition groups threatening the Assad government.



Fact check: the Soviets fought Nazi Germany

False - the Soviets WERE Nazi Germany, source Tim Snyder and Hollywood

#507
Post rating: ~

elias posted:

lol as well to the rest of that post. you're weird man you shouldn't read so many blogs.



Yeah let me just ignore that my government is creating a global terrorist network and regime change circus at home and abroad, it will be a nice surprise when the fester erupts.

I do agree that it would be easier on me and my sanity/popularity if I let progressive NGOs do my thinking for me.

#508
Post rating: ~
In 48 hours Henry Krinkle will make a tweet reiterating the legitimacy of anti-imperialist thought while denouncing what would sound to be, from his tweet, a broadly held ultraleft bourgeois nationalist third worldist deviation, based solely on you making that strange post.
#509
Post rating: +
Thanks for the tip. You get that it was mainly trolling a troll who consistently drags discussion around for multiple pages with tedious bad faith arguments?
#510
Post rating: +
you should have thrown in "dogmatic tankie cryptofascist" to complete the nonsense word salad that is "ultra left bourgeois nationalist third worldist deviation"
#511
Post rating: +

xipe posted:

Thanks for the tip. You get that it was mainly trolling a troll who consistently drags discussion around for multiple pages with tedious bad faith arguments?


When they go low, we go high.

#512
Post rating: ~
Can someone modify the notre dame crest to put Omar al sistani on it and call it the fightin isis?



#513
Post rating: +
#514
Post rating: +++++
mr trump said bashar al assad brushes his teeth every day.

FACT CHECK: mostly false / partially nonmisleading

mr assad brushes his teeth twice daily, but the majority of his time, more than 23.5 hours per day, is spent on other tasks

-turdins mc googlevon


verisimilitude edit: ☑✔✓☒✘✗✖❎✅

Edited by Constantignoble ()

#515
Post rating: +
i think to a large extent discourse about long-standing leftist concerns like the israel/palestine conflict has been coopted to manage dissent in left circles about contemporary interventions like syria. i'm seeing quite a few people who made their name being anti-israel now turn around and mock "anti-imperialist leftists" for criticizing u.s. intervention in syria and skeptically appraising propaganda about russian and syrian airstrikes. which is the line Panopticon is repeating here.

their politics seem to fall into a left-liberal spectrum and they promote "humanitarianism" as a casus belli, exactly like the american state department. every time i read them, they propagate the same narrative: syrian barrel bombs, russian double-tap airstrikes, white helmets are heroes, etc. while ignoring or down-playing NATOs own bombings, etc.

basically the line is that "the syrian people" are fighting a revolution against a fascist assad, who is supported by evil russians, and the idea that most of the rebels are islamist and terroristic is a slander, with a coded justification that even if that was true they are actually preferable. and, in this attempt to overthrow assad, it doesn't matter who or what gives them material assistance.

at its essence it replicates the narrative that the united states has been promoting all along. secular moderates exist! assad is a monster! russia is having a negative impact that amounts to a war crime! the u.s. funding "moderate" rebels is a good thing! the Idiot Left is bad for blanket condemnation of all u.s. foreign policy! n u a n c e (without actual nuance)

it reminds me of the way the CIA funded anti-communist leftists with the Congress for Cultural Freedom and its various front publications to make condemnations of the soviet union's foreign policy and defend american "humanitarian" projects to a leftist audience. i wonder how many of these people we'll find out in twenty years were indirectly on the payroll through USAID and what not. like, look at this tweet chain for a perfect example:

Edited by aerdil ()

#516
hi
Post rating: +
yeah that chain was weird because i see lefties criticizing USAID's role in Palestine quite a bit really.
#517
Post rating: ~
One of the things that is most notable about the White Helmets is they don't really have a direct analogue in any other conflict I can think of, in terms of funding, active propaganda role, and documented links to outright terrorism. It's funny that pro-west skeptics feel the need to invent hypothetical analogues in their defence. The logic is so tortured for something already based on a fantasy scenario
#518
Post rating: +

Petrol posted:

One of the things that is most notable about the White Helmets is they don't really have a direct analogue in any other conflict I can think of, in terms of funding, active propaganda role, and documented links to outright terrorism. It's funny that pro-west skeptics feel the need to invent hypothetical analogues in their defence. The logic is so tortured for something already based on a fantasy scenario



yeah that example especially.... for it to even be analogous, the u.s. would have to be actively trying to promote hostile regime change in israel, and, well...

#519
tardy on these heaters
Post rating: ~

pogfan1996 posted:

if anyone is looking for a good rebuttal of that "______ is neoliberal and shouldnt be defended" ultra-left nonsense here ya go

https://return2source.wordpress.com/2011/09/27/marxism-bourgeois-nationalism/



you're an insane person lol

#520
tardy on these heaters
Post rating: ~

elias posted:

lol as well to the rest of that post. you're weird man you shouldn't read so many blogs.



he used to be alright i dunno what all this weird shit is