getfiscal posted:

Red_Canadian posted:
sure, the best thing would be if everyone of descent other than first nations committed suicide
No it wouldn't? Anyway the point is to come up with a credible plan to end capitalism in Canada and Quebec while transfering back land and resources to indigenous peoples commensurate with their desires. That doesn't mean they are going to say "give us every square inch", it likely means viable, sustainable autonomy such that their nations can persist and enjoy equal services and livelihoods, where ceding land to settlers involves just compensation. Reformists have no credible plan at all to achieve any of that. The Liberals themselves can't even fully commit to clean drinking water by 2020.

I'd take this a step further that without Indigenous self-determination (up to and including succession), socialism will never come about on Turtle Island/ North America. The process of dispossession which subjugates Indigenous nations to the colonizer nations of Canada and the United States is not exactly the same kind of dispossession/proletarianization that workers experience, but it is similar enough that if you implemented "settler socialism" it would basically just be capitalism with socialized profits because the settler state would still be extracting surplus value from indigenous land and peoples

Red_Canadian posted:

i'm not sayin i don't understand that, but what does it mean towards our actions? should we all just move back to europe, which we stole from the neanderthals? does mean trying to improve our situations is merely further colonialism?
sure, the best thing would be if everyone of descent other than first nations committed suicide, but it don't think it's very likely. it's not like i don't support indigenous actions, but do you think they'd be able to overthrow capitalism without our support? im not deriding their abilities or convictions, merely their numbers.
a hypothetical quebec federal state, with first nations and colonialist soviets on equal basis, would still not pass your rigor?
i hope i'm not coming across as aggressive, i genuinely want to know.
what's more, it's not fair to conflate what I say with the rest of montreal, since i'm just a couple years here transplant from ontario

wth..

roseweird posted:

Red_Canadian posted:

i hope i'm not coming across as aggressive, i genuinely want to know.

i think you say something like this every single time you post

not exactly, although i post it often enough. i'm just trying to avoid my ignorance coming across as trolling.
perhaps i should put something similar towards that in my sig.

cars posted:

lower and more radical levels,

not quebec solidaire or like, sinn fein or whatever.. what is the thinking behind disengaging from these areas where leftist and anti-imperialist ideas are heard and considered in greater proportions?? where does that go?

EmanuelaBrolandi posted:

i disagree. we need a new great upheaval as a final solution to the acadien problem. send the quebecois to louisiana where they belong.

ive been making a hoi4 mod where you can do that

getfiscal posted:

Well, the "settler state within a settler state" thing is true, but you can't use it as a bludgeon to ignore the real oppression that Quebecois faced within Canada and the legitimate grievances they had within federation. You can't point to a founding crime to erase geopolitical realities as if it is a matter of morality instead of political strategy. The point isn't to reconcile all moral quandaries but build a functioning socialist society out of the ruins of the old. I think you are completely correct that indigenous struggles form a core part of that in Canada/Quebec but the reason is not to create Wilsonian nation-states with morally justified legal title to the land, it's to destroy the system of capitalist states and create worker's states.

readsettlers.org

getfiscal posted:

Well, the "settler state within a settler state" thing is true, but you can't use it as a bludgeon to ignore the real oppression that Quebecois faced within Canada and the legitimate grievances they had within federation. You can't point to a founding crime to erase geopolitical realities as if it is a matter of morality instead of political strategy. The point isn't to reconcile all moral quandaries but build a functioning socialist society out of the ruins of the old. I think you are completely correct that indigenous struggles form a core part of that in Canada/Quebec but the reason is not to create Wilsonian nation-states with morally justified legal title to the land, it's to destroy the system of capitalist states and create worker's states.

Had. Past-tense. I don't see any need to engage in Québécois nationalism when they've successfully integrated into Canadian imperialism. I'm pro-bilingualism and all that but I don't see it as a terrain of revolutionary politics.

The indigenous question isn't one of rectifying moral wrongs or assauging white guilt, the ongoing dispossession and quiet genocide of indigenous people is one of the key pillars of Canadian and American capital. If you don't engage with it as a national liberation struggle you're leaving the bedrock of Capitalism intact. So much for your workers state.

Red_Canadian posted:

i'm not sayin i don't understand that, but what does it mean towards our actions? should we all just move back to europe, which we stole from the neanderthals? does mean trying to improve our situations is merely further colonialism? sure, the best thing would be if everyone of descent other than first nations committed suicide,

The only hope is for North America to embrace its status as a creole cultural zone and leave petty racial grievances behind, which will help entrench emancipatory politics and ease the case for American socialism. All of the Americas are miscegenated post-revolutionary democratic states where the concept of "nations of blood" holds no value, and the US and Canada need to wake up to the fact.

The main reason why Latin Americans are still so attached to leftist politics unlike the rest of the world is that there is little room for blood grievances and partitioning along ethnic lines to arise in Latin America since everyone basically accepts the multiracial creole status of their culture and history, even if racist biases still persist in institutions and wealth distribution (and light racial jokes/teasing which are nothing compared to actual Anglo-European racism or the Middle East, Balkans).