idk i could just be one of those people who doesnt know what the fuck he's talking about but thats just me
Squalid posted:Is real third worldism even a thing here? I think i remember thug lessons supporting some of its tenents but its not like he would have fit in at msh. I remember McCaine had good arguments for some of its ideas but he dosnt post here so...
me + blink&wheeze at least are third worldists
discipline posted:what am I then jools
you and crow are Fascists Lol
there's a certain logic in "MTW" kind of cynically or 'realistically' dismissing the petty concerns of these sorts of indicators, an effort to avoid productivist errors. efforts to counteract the desire for improved 'standards of living' and other indicators by outright confrontational negation. these indices just basically dont apply (like when the Soviet Union broke some international laws in its decision not to honor any of the Tsarist debts), so why bother fighting within these constraints?
and so there is a focus on working at the margins of society, the 'weakest links', where people are not burdened with trying to save a world that has never truly existed and will not return, and i think that's a good impulse. i'm not sure it's helpful to take a defeatist attitude towards most people, but it is probably a good idea maybe to narrow your focus, conserve your energy, and limit your disappointment.
and then there's also the questions of living in the epoch where humanity as a species becomes a geological factor: have we even properly framed the question of what is our place ecologically in a world where we have the power to (if we haven't already) trigger a global extinction event? where we can initiate seismic catastrophes with large-scale projects? it's a very difficult time, and to me it makes complete sense that there is an apocalyptic panic always on the horizon of our consciousness. it is not quite that easy to say the solution is to 'align with or return to nature' or just 'abolish capitalism', when 'nature' seems to be in the midst of a massive crisis, when 'nature' by definition is strewn with crisis and radical change and massive extinction. there's probably no turning back, no way to turn back the clock on the original sin.
And in conclusion, I am not the fascist jools is the fascist. Obsessin about jews an shit. The gaze that perceives anti-semitism all around it is anti-semitic. FUCKer
With some good planning and controls you could definitely limit the more wanton environmental damage but at the end of the day...
EmanuelaOrlandi posted:i thought u didnt believe in climate change chris
There are huge numbers of things besides climate change: ocean acidification, overfishing, deforestation, salinity, the giant clusterfuck that will result from a beef eating Asian middle class.
It’s not so much I don’t believe in climate change, it’s just an ideological debate between people who don’t really know anything, and I’m not convinced about the scientists models.
I read some articles about how Sandy is “the new normal” and thus will hopefully make Americans aware of their overconsumption and stuff, and when you break it down the message there is identical to “God sent Sandy to New York because of all the sodomites and abortions” or whatever.
environment canada provides seasonal forecasts ("the next three months will be warmer/colder, wetter/drier than average") and also provides data on how often those outlooks have been correct, in the form of a map. grey on the map means it's as accurate as flipping a coin, and aside from a few tiny specks, the whole map is always grey. predicting the next 5-10 years of complete climatic bullshit? lol no
so i agree that it's more useful to there's a cat on my lap and he's using his privilege to make it harder to type, what was i saying? smash the state 420
swampman posted:well i dont believe that first world exploiting the third world is the root cause or chief struggle, but like feminism it makes valid complaint for an oppressed group. race, criminality, mental health, and even height are equally valid, but less articulated and/or less universally felt lines of division. all these approaches to resolving the worlds injustices are "correct" in that they are good ways to awaken radical thought, they make explicit demands for change, and they demonstrate that oppression is inherent to the system. when people complain that these are distractions from the real issue of capitalist exploitation, i mean, yeah, but we have to be practical. i would feel like a hypocrite waving a banner for third worldism on my own but its popularity didnt arise from pure mass delusion on the part of academics, and if a third worldist movement cropped up and seemed ready to upset western hegemony id support it.
idk i could just be one of those people who doesnt know what the fuck he's talking about but thats just me
was basically gonna say i agree with this and the environment thing is the same deal, like, yes climate change is a lil more complex than many everyday simplifications but the general drive of nonsustainability = death is a productive association that should be encouraged
both environmentalism & privilege discourse introduce ideas that edge closer to things which could be, well, must be incorporated in any sort of modern rediscovery of a communism
jools posted:i mean sure lets just ignore all these scientists with their FAncy MAth and Clever Computers and go straight for the Gut
- heterodox economics
getfiscal posted:jools posted:i mean sure lets just ignore all these scientists with their FAncy MAth and Clever Computers and go straight for the Gut
- heterodox economics
well, economics is basically little different to climate science. except in one the mainstream is okay with secular trends and in the other it isnt...
jools posted:and aside from anything else predicting climate change/discovering a link between CO2 concentration and temperature is really quite different to weather prediction.
well that's an entire other level. Squalid was saying he read a study that "global warming will reduce the frequency of severe storms" and I have no faith in any of those conclusions, because it so often flips back and forth, one study says that and the next will say the opposite... and the details are not really the point
i'm agreeing with you in that yes there is complete scientific validity to the claim that we are fucked, temperature is increasing, etc., but I haven't been convinced that we are able to predict the details of the ways in which we are fucked aside from very large scale phenomena like ocean temp rise. as far as i know no one has figured out with any certainty what may happen with the global thermohaline circulation, for instance. will the gulf stream turn off one day? no one knows
things are becoming less hospitable. and it is a problem. the rest is divining rods
Squalid posted:Ive never seen a Marxist plan for a sustainable economy. Excepting anarcho-primivists liberals and socialists seem to want to do the same things with the economy, that is to build more windmills and light rail.
i haven't either. but a lot of the things discussed around sustainability are explicitly anticapitalist
though i spend a lot of time in the leftest parts of canada so i suppose it could have its own flavour here that doesn't reflect the wider sentiment
jools posted:i mean sure lets just ignore all these scientists with their FAncy MAth and Clever Computers and go straight for the Gut with "unsustainability = death"
“Scientists have solid experimental and theoretical evidence to support…the following predictions: In a decade, urban dwellers will have to wear gas masks to survive air pollution…by 1985 air pollution will have reduced the amount of sunlight reaching earth by one half….”
• Life Magazine, January 1970
That’s fine, and it helps explain just why it is just such a toxic political battle, but in any ideological war there are agendas being played out and biases being reinforced.
People put a LOT of faith in these scientists and models but tell me this: What other predictions of the future 15-20 years from now would you be comfortable not only supporting, but devoutly believing in?
“The BRICS economies will become a much larger part of the global market” is fair enough but “Brazil’s economic output will grow by 12% while inflation in Russia will rise 8%”? Where does that come from? Yet that’s what the debate is with temperatures and sea level rises
drwhat posted:jools posted:
and aside from anything else predicting climate change/discovering a link between CO2 concentration and temperature is really quite different to weather prediction.
well that's an entire other level. Squalid was saying he read a study that "global warming will reduce the frequency of severe storms" and I have no faith in any of those conclusions, because it so often flips back and forth, one study says that and the next will say the opposite... and the details are not really the point
i'm agreeing with you in that yes there is complete scientific validity to the claim that we are fucked, temperature is increasing, etc., but I haven't been convinced that we are able to predict the details of the ways in which we are fucked aside from very large scale phenomena like ocean temp rise. as far as i know no one has figured out with any certainty what may happen with the global thermohaline circulation, for instance. will the gulf stream turn off one day? no one knows
things are becoming less hospitable. and it is a problem. the rest is divining rods
can we really say smoking causes cancer when we don't know everything there is to know about cancer, and maybe never will??? makes you think...
Ironicwarcriminal posted:Since the collapse of communism, it’s obvious that global warming (now climate change) has replaced it as the foremost antagonist and limiter of capitalism
although this is changing fast.....capitalism obviously is always developing new forms and such and Green Industries are now looting the treasuries of many countries in a corporatist swindle that would make Haliburton proud.
23 June 2011
Leading Australian renewable energy company, Pacific Hydro, today congratulated the South Australian Government on reaching their renewable energy target ahead of schedule.
“South Australia has demonstrated that reaching a 20% Renewable Energy Target is achievable and creates many benefits along the way”, said Pacific Hydro’s general manager for Australia, Mr Lane Crockett.
“We congratulate the South Australian Government on their leading position in renewable energy generation in Australia. Their forward thinking and responsible approach has encouraged the installation of clean energy in preparation for a carbon constrained world.”
“South Australia shows the rest of the nation that integrating renewable energy into the National Electricity Market (NEM) is possible, does not compromise the safety of grid and, contrary to popular belief, decreases wholesale electricity prices.
September 12, 2012
MORE than 10,000 households had their power disconnected after failing to pay their bills - the highest cut-off rate in almost a decade.
Figures released by the industry regulator yesterday showed that 10,100 homes lost power in the 12 months to July, compared to 7300 the previous financial year.
Soaring power prices are being blamed for this 38 per cent spike in disconnections, with welfare groups reporting those on fixed incomes suffering the most - including one man who had to resort to cooking his meals over a wood fire in his back-yard for six months after being disconnected.
Welfare agency Anglicare said it had reports of disconnected households commonly using candles for lighting, heating rooms with barbecues - and keeping perishables such as milk and butter in Eskies.
Retailers are being asked by the Essential Services Commission of SA to be more flexible when dealing with "consumers experiencing genuine financial hardship", because it is essential they have "continued access to energy".
The number of reconnections is only about a third of the number of disconnections recorded in 2011/12, the figures show.
the scare quotes around "scientists with their fancy models" really are justified once you strip away the sarcasm...hopeless
i should add that 5 degrees celcius is about 10 degrees farenheit, a catastrophically wrong error. This is what drwhat accurately describes as weather divining, or climactic alchemy, trying to turn leaden data into a golden narrative
Edited by Ironicwarcriminal ()
I don't understand why you're all excited about this, my point is that the details are often revised but the very large scale direction (I.e. badwards) is pretty much inarguable so it's stupid to obsess about prediction A or storm B